There is No Free Will: We Simply Follow Our Script!

We are all the product of a higher order, simply living out
our 'scripts', which have been set out before us ... to wit:

I.) We did not conceive ourselves.

II.) We did not pick the point in man’s history, which we would inhabit.

III.) We did not choose our genetic structure, that is to say, our genetic traits, characteristics and tendencies.

IV.) We did not choose our parents.

V.) We did not choose our country of origin, our societal environment (i.e., the society in which we were raised).

VI.) We did not choose the events and influences of our lives that did their part in shaping our development (i.e., our early environmental influences).

VII.) We did not create our own belief system – our belief system existed prior to our taking it (even if one disregards the belief system with which they are raised, chances are they will simply replace it with another pre-existing one, off of the shelf - and thereby adopt that 'group think').

VIII.) And lastly, we did not choose our motivations – those motivations, or driving forces that go about to impact our lives, continually – each day - inspiring us to do this or that, inspiring us to search out this or that, and inspiring us to take that certain road we were meant to follow.

So you see, all told, we simply live out those ‘scripts’ that were given us.

Howbeit with the illusion of our own ‘free-will’ firmly in place.

Cheers
Jocariah

.

Yo J,

An interesting theory you have going here.

Fatalism is just another name for existentialism: a reductionist theory that essentially deprives life of any, volition, purpose or meaning. If we are only pawns of some predestined plan, then why bother with waking up? If we gain nothing by being conscious, then why not live inside our TV sets until our minds become a useless pool of goo? Why bother with sharing your theories if they will not change anything?

If what you say is true, then we would all do best for ourselves by devolving our admittedly dysfunctional cultural model into a bacchanal of hedonistic anarchy. Party on dude! No purpose, no consequences: might as well enjoy the ride since it is only a free-wheeling descent into hell anyway, eh?

I don't buy this any more than your claims to having no belief system. In my reality, life has purpose and I cannot navigate it without believing in something, even if it is as small as believing that I am communicating with another person over this depersonalized communication system.

But hey, maybe that's just me having a pointless conversation with my pointless self.

Gosh, this even makes dog-eat-dog social Drawinism sound attractive........

Cheers?

Mike

Unless maybe Jocariah is only speaking of himself and other abductees , which could be how we should try and rationalize his post(s). Jocariah is supposedly being given his messages thru channeling or aliens , so maybe this is what they have him believing in order to carry out their mission with him. If true its a scarey thought.

Mr. Good wrote: ""Fatalism is just another name for existentialism: a reductionist theory that essentially deprives life of any, volition, purpose or meaning. If we are only pawns of some predestined plan, then why bother with waking up?""

First, let me thank you for your well-thought-out response.

This belief system of yours, such as it is, has you talking out of both side of your mouth.

Why do humans exist in such a clueless manner (we don’t understand our purpose, who created us, or even ‘ourselves’) – always searching, as we are, for that elusive thing, whatever it might be, always missing in our life – be it intellectual understanding, God, liquor, drugs, sex or whatever it might be. It’s this endless (and mindless) struggle that continues on and on and on, ad infinitum.

Why?

Why exactly is that? Millions and millions of churches, thousands of religions, with most of these six billion souls all searching for ‘The Way’ … the answer?

Could it be that humans are genetically programmed (designed) to be on this perpetual treadmill – all of their lives?

This is NOT fatalism, as you have chosen to term it, but rather, it is simply me pointing out the way in which we exist, on this planet.

So tell me Mr. Good, exactly which of the eight points that I made in my initial post are you in complete control of?

I would certainly like to hear this - because you too may qualify as a ‘fatalist’, by your own definition.

Cheers
Jocariah

.

J posts ......

Why do humans exist in such a clueless manner (we don’t understand our purpose, who created us, or even ‘ourselves’) – always searching, as we are, for that elusive thing, whatever it might be, always missing in our life – be it intellectual understanding, God, liquor, drugs, sex or whatever it might be. It’s this endless (and mindless) struggle that continues on and on and on, ad infinitum.





But speaking as a christian I do know who created me , I do have a purpose. We who are christians are not "searching" for God or the answers ... we found them !

Granted we don't choose our parents, dna, etc. but we *do* have a lot of control over our lives ~ esp #'s 7 and 8 in your list, imo. I of course cannot speak for anyone else, but regarding myself, I do believe I am in control of my motivations ~ I did spend years living under a rigid system of beliefs and being motivated by the external, but I now strive to attain what *I* elect. Beliefs are not all forces either. Imo, if we look within, not without, and truly get in touch with our true self as stripped of the ego and external influences as much as possible, we'll be in a much better place,. Not trying to sound all Eckhart Tolle, just sharing what my take on this is. I feel we do have a tremendous role in our lives ~ seeing ourselves as following a script sounds so depressing, and very, well. inhuman in a sense.

Jocariah,

I would not like to go too much into my beliefs here as they are personal. But I do think that we choose numbers II, IV, V and to some extent VI. Certainly once we are committed to this life, we do not have this kind of volition. We sign up for the whole ride. Being born into our life comes with a forget clause so that we may deal with our challenges as they come and in the full bloom of our "cluelessness" as you put it.

But I think that we, at every turn and every moment, have choice. We may not always choose the events of our lives, but we certainly choose how we respond to them. Volition, far from being beyond our grasp is, to my mind, the purpose of this whole little kindergarten we call life.

And, as Pearl points out, numbers VII and VIII are all about volition, even if those choices are made up of the detritus of our cultural language and consciousness. When in Rome, you must work with the tools that Rome provides - or make new ones for yourself.

But let's face it, if life is just a fatalist script (as you say) and we are little more than pre-programmed puppets playing out a pre-scripted play - with no choice in any of it - what is the point?

We are an expression of consciousness: the only thing in this universal experience that is universal. Our purpose (at least as far as we deluded humans are concerned) is to become conscious: to become fully actualized expressions of consciousness operating in a conscious universe. We are that, fully, even if we do not recognize it.

Are you familiar with quantum physics? If not, I suggest you study it a bit. If our experiential world is nothing more than an actualized expression of consciousness (as quantum physics suggests) then we create our lives through our interaction with the quantum field of potentials. We do not always create the conditions of our experience, but we do create the spiritual results - because we choose them with our beliefs.

It is kind of sad that you do not see any purpose in all this. That purposelessness is the definition of existentialism: nihilist oblivion. It is a very alienating choice of philosophy. Why bother if there is no point?

If nothing else, we can find purpose in expressing ourselves as human beings: take a chance and make living the point in your life. I love my life and the things that I do. I think that is expressing consciousness in a very beautiful way - even if I am clueless in so many respects.

It works for me. I suspect it will work for anybody. Hell, it certainly can't hurt.

Pearl wrote: ""seeing ourselves as following a script sounds so depressing, and very, well. inhuman in a sense.""

Simply stated, everyone assumes that they have a free will – but all of the evidence, as I have outlined, suggests otherwise.

It appears to me that this discussion is actually with everyone’s belief system, rather than them alone - forget the evidence, if it’s too depressing, too fatalistic (according to someone’s predetermined definition) then I want nothing to do with it. Because for us human’s, as we all know, all things must be happy and make us feel good, in order to be valid, and anything contrary to that, is therefore 'invalid'.

Personally, I don't have a thought either way on this topic – But I do find it interesting that people side opposite of the evidence, with regard to 'free will' - to the point of developing all sorts of ethereal mumbo jumbo to counter the evidence.... least it undermine their belief system.

Damn the evidence, I want my free will.

I’m starting to see that the Human belief system is based substantially on illusions – the illusion of a free will, the illusion of a God – it’s all about illusion.

Humans live out their days within a multitude of delusions, and damn anybody that tries to disturb them.

With regard to UFO’s we need evidence, and more evidence. But with God, it’s all somehow magically about ‘faith’ … “the substance of things hoped for – the evidence of things NOT seen”.

The writers of the Judeo-Christian belief system got it right. Written within that belief system is a way for people to be able to base their beliefs without any evidence whatsoever…hence ‘faith’. And written therein, the more ‘faith’ one had the better, the closer to God he or she was…’Brilliant!” Look at me God, I have ‘faith’…no evidence necessary, aren’t I a good and ‘faith’-ful follower. …’Brilliant!’

And here's the best part, those speaking against the ridiculousness of all of this are Blasphemers and of Satan...'Brilliant!"

This is the ultimate 'closed loop' in terms of our thought process.

No wonder believers fight so hard when it comes to all of this - they have to overcome their own doubt and sense of absurdity of it all.

Cheers
Jocariah

.

Pearl wrote:

Not trying to sound all Eckhart Tolle, just sharing what my take on this is. I feel we do have a tremendous role in our lives ~ seeing ourselves as following a script sounds so depressing, and very, well. inhuman in a sense.

Oh Pearl, PLEASE get all Eckhart Tolle on his ass! Otherwise he will get all Johnny Rotten on ours.......

So J, how's that fatalist existential nihilism working for you?

Try reading "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot. No airy fairy stuff, just good old quantum physics: which oddly enough, leads to airy fairy stuff. Hell, if you have to live within the confines of an alienating cultural belief system, might as well drink some koolaid that makes sense of the whole thing.

MMMMmmmmm, it tastes good too!

Cheers!!

Mike

Mike Good wrote: ""Try reading "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot. No airy fairy stuff, just good old quantum physics: which oddly enough, leads to airy fairy stuff. Hell, if you have to live within the confines of an alienating cultural belief system, might as well drink some koolaid that makes sense of the whole thing""

Whatever parallels you deem necessary to draw, in order for you to pigeonhole or categorize me...feel free. But it is for your sake, and not my own.

Cheers
Jocariah

.

Jocoriah finally gets to the point of what this is reaaly about ...

he posts ...
"With regard to UFO’s we need evidence, and more evidence. But with God, it’s all somehow magically about ‘faith’ … “the substance of things hoped for – the evidence of things NOT seen”.

The writers of the Judeo-Christian belief system got it right. Written within that belief system is a way for people to be able to base their beliefs without any evidence whatsoever…hence ‘faith’. And written therein, the more ‘faith’ one had the better, the closer to God he or she was…’Brilliant!” Look at me God, I have ‘faith’…no evidence necessary, aren’t I a good and ‘faith’-ful follower. …’Brilliant!’

And here's the best part, those speaking against the ridiculousness of all of this are Blasphemers and of Satan...'Brilliant!"

This is the ultimate 'closed loop' in terms of our thought process.

No wonder believers fight so hard when it comes to all of this - they have to overcome their own doubt and sense of absurdity of it all.

Cheers
Jocariah
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So here we are again !!! Right back where we started from ... on the doorstep of religion, not just any religion, Jocoriah targets christianity since it is the one he fears and detests the most.

This isn't about "UFO'S" and Jocoriahs "secret channelings" from aliens .. its exactly what I pegged it as right from the beginning, which is nothing more than satanic messages aimed at undermining God and christianity, nothing more and nothing less. Jocariah knew I had him pegged from day one when I pointed out how all his messages seemed to have a common thread running thru them, that common thread being all his channelings and messages are aimed at undermining God and christianity, sometimes openly and blatantly like in his post above... other times not so openly , but always the same message against the truth of our creator , our righteous God. All of Jocariahs attempts to mock and ridicule christianity will not succeed as he will eventually find out in time.

Jocariah wrote:

Pearl wrote: ""seeing ourselves as following a script sounds so depressing, and very, well. inhuman in a sense.""

Simply stated, everyone assumes that they have a free will – but all of the evidence, as I have outlined, suggests otherwise.

It appears to me that this discussion is actually with everyone’s belief system, rather than them alone - forget the evidence, if it’s too depressing, too fatalistic (according to someone’s predetermined definition) then I want nothing to do with it. Because for us human’s, as we all know, all things must be happy and make us feel good, in order to be valid, and anything contrary to that, is therefore 'invalid'.

Personally, I don't have a thought either way on this topic – But I do find it interesting that people side opposite of the evidence, with regard to 'free will' - to the point of developing all sorts of ethereal mumbo jumbo to counter the evidence.... least it undermine their belief system.

Damn the evidence, I want my free will.

I’m starting to see that the Human belief system is based substantially on illusions – the illusion of a free will, the illusion of a God – it’s all about illusion.

Humans live out their days within a multitude of delusions, and damn anybody that tries to disturb them.

With regard to UFO’s we need evidence, and more evidence. But with God, it’s all somehow magically about ‘faith’ … “the substance of things hoped for – the evidence of things NOT seen”.

The writers of the Judeo-Christian belief system got it right. Written within that belief system is a way for people to be able to base their beliefs without any evidence whatsoever…hence ‘faith’. And written therein, the more ‘faith’ one had the better, the closer to God he or she was…’Brilliant!” Look at me God, I have ‘faith’…no evidence necessary, aren’t I a good and ‘faith’-ful follower. …’Brilliant!’

And here's the best part, those speaking against the ridiculousness of all of this are Blasphemers and of Satan...'Brilliant!"

This is the ultimate 'closed loop' in terms of our thought process.

No wonder believers fight so hard when it comes to all of this - they have to overcome their own doubt and sense of absurdity of it all.

Cheers
Jocariah

.

But you see, what you put forth as "evidence" is merely your opinion, your view of things. It is not "evidence" at all ~ evidence can be proven beyond a doubt, what you are claiming is nothing more than opinion. You are entitled to your opinions, just as everyone else is, but when you take it to the point of presenting them as solid fact, that is another matter.

Too, if seems as though you take those who disagree with your beliefs as a personal affront to you ~ and they are not. Our beliefs are separate from our being, someone not accepting a viewpoint is not in any way not accepting of the view holder. Just thought I'd toss that little nugget out there because in areas of the post it seems as though the lines between self and ideas were being blurred a bit, and I wanted to emphasize that it's the putting opinions out as fact that I feel people are at odds with, not the person who holds them

Back to the topic at hand though, I fail to see where religion fits in with this ~ I have a dear friend who is agnostic who is a firm believer in free will and the beauty of our species, as well as a Wiccan friend believes in free will ~ free will does not seem to be a 'religious' commodity.

I also disagree with the claim that 'believers' are basing their lives on illusion ~ first I have to assume that you're referring to believers in G-d, not believers in ETs or UFOs, etc, correct? Following then, I have to respectfully disagree. How is a believer in an ET any different than a believer in G-d? Neither has irrefutable evidence that will sway the other side ~ your claims of contact/channeling cannot be proven nor dis-proven ~ yet people show you the respect of accepting your perception of the events that unfolded in your life. Why is it not fathomable to do the same for someone who feels a connection to G-d or to whatever entity s/he has? It seems very narrow-minded, and not very 'enlightened' to be wanting to have your views accepted whilst poo-pooing those of others.

We each hold within us something wonderful, whether we believe that to be the spark of G-d, of an impersonal energy that extends through the Universe, etc., there is something in us, our individuality, our 'spark' ~ we all have free will, and the ability to choose what we want. No, we cannot control the external ~ I cannot make it rain any more than I can make my husband treat me this way or that ~ but what I *can* control is myself ~ the real me, the me that is deep within, the inner essence of self, can choose how to respond to the external ~ and don't you see the beauty in that? I am not following a script, I am free to respond to the external in whatever way I myself elect ~ imo, that is what matters. No, we cannot control the world around us, we cannot change the laws of nature or the Universe, but we are in total control of the inner self, and that, my friend, is something very, very precious. Call it free will, call it whatever, but it's real, and it's something each of us has been blessed with, either by G-d or nature itself.

Jocariah wrote:

Whatever parallels you deem necessary to draw, in order for you to pigeonhole or categorize me...feel free. But it is for your sake, and not my own.

Cheers
Jocariah

Jocariah,

I am not trying to pigeon hole you. I am merely responding to what you said here in the manner that seemed appropriate. I apologize for any offense.

I was only trying to toss a drowning man a life preserver. Of course it is up to you whether you would prefer to swim to shore. Ultimately that is what we all do anyway, whether we struggle with it or give in to the passing boats. C'est la vie.

And to Pearl, thanks for expressing things in such a nice an honest way. I have not read your postings here before. You rock!!

Cheers!!

Mike

Mike Good wrote: ""I was only trying to toss a drowning man a life preserver. Of course it is up to you whether you would prefer to swim to shore. Ultimately that is what we all do anyway, whether we struggle with it or give in to the passing boats. C'est la vie""

No need to apologize - you have always been a complete gentleman, Mike.

However, you seem to be projecting your feelings on me for some reason - I am not drowning.

Cheers
Jocariah

.

Pearl wrote: ""But you see, what you put forth as "evidence" is merely your opinion, your view of things. It is not "evidence" at all ~ evidence can be proven beyond a doubt, what you are claiming is nothing more than opinion.""

I agree with Mike, great post...thanks

But are you certain that you would classify this as my opinion - let's just look at the top four of eight:

I.) We did not conceive ourselves.

II.) We did not pick the point in man’s history, which we would inhabit.

III.) We did not choose our genetic structure, that is to say, our genetic traits, characteristics and tendencies.

IV.) We did not choose our parents.

Is there really any doubt that we did NOT 'conceive ourselves', 'pick our time in man's history to inhabit', choose our genetic structure' or choose our parents'.

Is this really arguable?

This I have termed evidence - if this is really my opinion, please tell me HOW one might accomplish the above items on their own. There are six billion of us, and I have yet to hear of anyone picking any of these things for themselves.

So what you are saying here, is that you had a say in your conception, 'you picked your time in man's history to inhabit', you chose your genetic structure' and you chose your parents'.

Please explain – maybe I’m confused.

Cheers
Jocariah

...

Seriously, sincerely, and I hope serially!

alienview@roadrunner.com
> www.AlienView.net
>> AVG Blog -- http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/
>>> U F O M a g a z i n e -- www.ufomag.com

Religion really isn't unique.

Each religion carries with it its own perspective. A view of how the individual fits into the scheme of things, and indeed, even what the scheme of things actually is, according to that particular religion or belief system.

Perspective then, entails a specific agenda, which then goes on to set the stage for whatever it is that one may encounter.

Beliefs systems (i.e., religious beliefs systems) are neither good nor bad, neither right nor wrong. They simply are a system utilized to establish an overall operating system if you will, for the individual. A perspective or portal, with which to see the world.

Any specific religion is simply an individual's operating system - nothing more, regardless of how widespread that religion or sect might be. It still comes down to the individual - to each individual.

As operating systems go, Windows, Unix, Linux and Apple, all have their quirks and intricacies. They all perform much the same function, and depending on the application at hand, one may or may not be better suited for a specific task. Belief systems act in this way, as well.

If it is that anyone can convey an ‘alternative perspective’ or belief system, then this perspective is no better or worse than any other perspective – it simply is an ‘alternative’ to what one may have previously encountered.

There really is nothing new under the sun, simply different ways to discuss and perceive those same things that have always existed, and no doubt will continue to exist.

Ultimately, it really is about our understanding of what exists that changes – after all, things are what they are – regardless of whether or not we understand them, and regardless of which belief system one might use to interpret them.

The point here isn’t THAT we use our belief system to interpret our world (that’s obvious) - but rather, understanding HOW we continually use our belief system to interpret our world, consciously seeing it in action, as it does what it does. And then understanding how we arrive at our conclusions, based entirely on our belief system.

There is a subtlety to all of this, that can easily be lost.

Cheers
Jocaariah

...

"Maybe I just need to get in front of a brighter crowd."


I'm certain that's it! Truly, your contributions here are as pearls cast before swine, rye seeds sown on rocky faces -- a ball punted into the tallest of our tallest grasses! We're (I'm) not worthy. I'll miss you when you go. Sum our (my) faults before you do though, in a long tedious piece of ire, regret, and bitterness. Name names. Burn bridges. Write bad checks.

alienview@roadrunner.com
> www.AlienView.net
>> AVG Blog -- http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/
>>> U F O M a g a z i n e -- www.ufomag.com

That's great, Alfred.

You're really starting to verbalize more.

Cheers
Jocariah

.

Oooo, such deliberate jousting! Such economy of wit! I swoon! Verily. All that and the big irony too. No seriously, you stride the message board like a philosophical colossus. Everyone! Run! Hide!

What grain of sand now condescends to lecture we remaining sand grains today as regards the "way things are." Sand grains who would presuppose their own relevance, I suspect, to lecture other sand grains as to the best way to make a sandwich forgetting irrelevant intelligence assessments as insulting as they are self-revealing, eh?

Are you really too cool for this room? Are you really?!

Jocariah wrote:

Usually, when I talk about this stuff, there are at least one or two people that have an Ahh Haa moment, and get it.

Maybe I just need to get in front of a brighter crowd.

Cheers
Jocariah

.

Goodness, and there for a minute I was taking you seriously LOL.

Just because people don't agree with you, it doesn't mean they lack intelligence, it simply means they don't share your views. It's rather ironic, isn't it, that in one post you will berate belief systems because they confine adherents to a script, yet, you seem to at the same time want people to mold their views to fit within YOUR belief system ~ sort of a lol moment, not an aha like you were looking for but a moment nonetheless. It seems as though you want people to follow *your* script and when the resist you resort to calling their intelligence in to question ~ not very open-minded, or fair.

You have your views, that's great ~ you've shared them, and others have shared theirs, in that consider it a successful dialog. Imo, true discussion listening and not just speaking ~ several people have shared some very good insights, it would be a nice idea to reflect on what others have shared to the extent that you'd like them to reflect on those which you've taken the time to share as well.

I will say, I am a bit disappointed ~ I thought you to be one who was looking for open discussion, not for the little minions to sit eagerly at your feet and conform to your beliefs We all have so much to learn from one another, it might do you a great deal of good if you'd open up the mind a little and see things from a perspective other than your own ~ you know, sort of like you want others to do

When Jocariah goes shopping with his wife he must tell her to use the credit card and charge everything because they won't pay for it later anyway, so it doesn't matter , nothing matters ... it is what it is regardless of our belief that we will have to pay.

When the bill comes due Jocariah must tell credit card company that he doesn't hold the same belief system that says he has to pay for the bill.


The next time he goes shopping he tries to use the card again and they reject it because he didn't pay their bill.

Jocariah stands screaming at the cashier that it's his belief system that says he should be able to still use that card.


The cops show up and have to spray mace in his face just to subdue him , they handcuff him and carry him off to jail as he screams that their belief system doesn't count and should have no effect on his life. .... "why are you perpetuating your belief system on me?"

"why can't we all just believe what we want to believe without consequences?"

"why does one have to be right and one wrong" Jocariah asks the Judge

Alfred Lehmberg wrote:

Are you really too cool for this room? Are you really?!

Al,

Nobody is too cool for this room. Too lukewarm, perhaps.

Jocariah, you have pretty nicely expressed the place the mindset plays in our bumbling attempts to apprehend "reality". The lukewarm ones are the dullards and laggards that still think their concepts of reality are what reality IS - in the ontological sense.

Bunkum, baloney, bladerdash and BS, for sure.

J, I get it, I truly do. But you have to have some kind of a place keeper to negotiate the conceptual obstacles. And just to prove what a dullard and laggard I am, here is a small example of my subjective conceptual BS:

Our assumed notions of reality are confabulated BS. As writer Aeolus Kephas astutely points out Belief Systems and Bull Shit are synonymous. Belief Systems are only contrived tracking systems for the non-local temporal readout of the infinite sea of holographic magnetic waves the fabric of our reality consists of. Matter is only a side effect of these pulsating sensory inputs. Our senses are specially attuned to the frequencies of matter. But that does not make matter the ‘be all to end all’ of reality - not by a long shot.

Our perceived universe is an information system. The laggards and dullards among us think that reality is that THING that passes before their senses - that seemingly "solid" matter that inhabits our sensory inputs. The only place those sensory inputs actually exist is in the vast magnetic information field that is the actual place where the "universe" resides. Our minds are consciousness activated antennae, reading out those wave forms from the quantum field. And our perceived universe is just a clever mirage that only "exists" in that long abused and misused space between our ears.

At least that is the BS apprehended from my personal understanding of quantum physics. BS in every sense of that term. But I figure it puts that "perceptual universe" I reside in in a little bit humbler perspective.

It tells me that whatever concepts I may construct concerning that "place" are really only mind constructs concerning wave forms and interference patterns.

But I must admit to a certain electrical stimulation between the ears, and seemingly other places as well, when faced with the wave forms we label Katherine Zeta-Jones. So, if we signed up for this little excursion into a "reality" so Epically Kafkaesque that Kafka could never have dreamed it up, then I say: might as well enjoy the ride.......

Eh?

Like good television, perhaps good forum needs a dash of conflict, as well.

Cheers
Jocariah

.