WARFARE IN HEAVEN

Alfred Lehmberg wrote:

"Your argument seems to be with God, not me."

Now that's a steaming pile, said as graciously. It's pretty obvious that the argument is not remotely with a "God" so necessarily complicated as to be an unspeakable mystery... but for some ill defined and untested (...and so valueless...) faith of the believer. No, the argument is, of course, with God's crass —if self appointed— apologists, persons as inflexible as they are proselytizing. These are intolerant zealots, usually, who would legislate the sensibilities of others while furtively practicing what they'd preach against. These are self-aggrandizing and moralizing busybodies fretting with regard to the motes in the eyes of others unmindful of the beam in their own. These are mawkish authoritarians ironically creating the horror about which they condescendingly sermonize from the ignorances they busily promote.

Argue with "God"? Don't be absurd. And please don't further embarrass yourself pretending to be able to determine who steps "up" and who steps "off" in the conversation. Perhaps you have the faith to think you can or should; that faith would be unfounded.

Thanks.


alienview@roadrunner.com
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Once again you offer up the weakest of arguments against christianity , the same weak argument Mike Good is trying to use, which is ... you don't like the followers of Jesus because we're full of weaknesses just like you ...thats your whole argument, that the followers are a bunch of hypocrites, mere mortals, sinners .... so how could they be right?

You miss the whole message of christianity ... you and Mike attacking the followers of Jesus doesn't change what he said about evil .... you two can try and spin it all you want but you're both pissing in the wind , neither of you have shown proof that the Bible doesn't warn humanity of evil and satan. Go read the Bible and get back to me.

LakehurstNJwitness wrote:

I was only giving a possible theory that there could be evil beings out to deceive humanity , just as the word of God tells us in the Bible.

Could it be that "the word of God [from] the Bible" is something out to deceive humanity?

Is the cognitive dissonance between an omnipotent, all seeing and benevolent God - and the wrathful malcontent who smites all and sundry who irritate him for one reason or another lost on you? Doesn't the absurd contradiction of his capricious behavior bother you? The paradoxical view that we must stamp out evil while promoting righteousness (always relative terms) never enters your mind as a divisive mindset which insures strife, war and misery for mankind in perpetuity, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

As long as we can dress the ugly truth up in our holy-roller trappings - all is well and good?

I have said it before and I will say it again: the best palliative for religion is analytical thinking. It at least allows you to guess which stuff is crap and which actually makes sense.

Well, unless you don't bother to question at all. They always prefer that you leave your mind and questions at home......

LakehurstNJwitness wrote:

Your argument seems to be with God, not me.

Who is this God? If you are so closely in touch with him, then please have him drop me an email or whatever. I do have some questions for him/her.

But, no. It was only your narrow view of reality that I had an argument with.

Uh yeah... you respond to what you want to hear. Read the Bible? LOL!

Which Bible? Do you have a preference, and why?

I wouldn't bring this up ordinarily... but Christianity is _always_ spelled with a capital. Maybe you were just showing a humility? That said, we're otherwise admonished that we might judge a tree by its fruit... a too well tolerated plethora of psychopathic apologists, men and women who define gods in their image to do their bidding. What say you as to that tree?

alienview@roadrunner.com
> www.AlienView.net
>> AVG Blog -- http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/
>>> U F O M a g a z i n e -- www.ufomag.com

I do not have a problem with the message of Jesus' teachings. I do have a problem with the dogma of Christianity, and the people who are in charge of it.

One problem I have is the recent sex/pedophile scandal of the Catholic Church. The Church did their very best to sweep it under the rug, and then Pope John Paul II did not say anything to condemn it. Paying off people and basically acting like a corruptly run government or corporation is not a way to gain back parishioners.

Another problem I have is the very violent past of the Church and the refusal to deal with it. When the soldiers asked who to go after when they were sent against the peaceful Cathars, the Pope responded: "Kill them all. God will recognize his own." They then went on to slaughter over 30,000 men women and children. The Spanish Inquisition also tortured and burned to death many thousands of people who were deemed heretics or unbelievers. Add to that the many people executed for witchcraft and other sorts of trials, and there is a very bloody past.

The Church is finally recognizing some of its historic wrongdoings. They recently pardoned Galileo for his crime of stating the Earth revolved around the Sun.

Again, Jesus' teachings of peace and love are not a problem. It is the way he was turned into a god and given divinity status that also is questionable. The dogma of Christianity is one that you have to believe or you will be sent to Hell. The people make up the rules as they go along, as Limbo was a place that was recently abolished by the Church. Mary was given Perpetual Virgin status in the 19th Century (and was given Virgin Status in the 4th Century.)

I like the older ways of our ancient ancestors. They looked at nature and were at one with it. They knew more about their spirituality than we are allowed to know. (Christians need to go to church or have a pastor/priest tell them what the Bible means.) The Earth (Terra or Gaea) is a living entity that we need to care for, and Christianity tells its followers to do as they please to it.

There is Jesus the man and teacher, then there is Christianity the dogma/religion. One is a real person who preached peace, love and knowledge, the other is a man made conception to keep power in a select few.

Does this answer your question, NJ?

Goddess Bless,

Lloyd

LakehurstNJwitness wrote:

dayanx wrote:

Looks like heaven ain't the only place that sees combat lately.

You guys need to cool off

We're all having a mature conversation , you're the only one acting like an ill mannered little child...grow up and post something useful if you're capable.

Case in point...

kidflash2008 wrote:

I do not have a problem with the message of Jesus' teachings. I do have a problem with the dogma of Christianity, and the people who are in charge of it.

One problem I have is the recent sex/pedophile scandal of the Catholic Church. The Church did their very best to sweep it under the rug, and then Pope John Paul II did not say anything to condemn it. Paying off people and basically acting like a corruptly run government or corporation is not a way to gain back parishioners.

Another problem I have is the very violent past of the Church and the refusal to deal with it. When the soldiers asked who to go after when they were sent against the peaceful Cathars, the Pope responded: "Kill them all. God will recognize his own." They then went on to slaughter over 30,000 men women and children. The Spanish Inquisition also tortured and burned to death many thousands of people who were deemed heretics or unbelievers. Add to that the many people executed for witchcraft and other sorts of trials, and there is a very bloody past.

The Church is finally recognizing some of its historic wrongdoings. They recently pardoned Galileo for his crime of stating the Earth revolved around the Sun.

Again, Jesus' teachings of peace and love are not a problem. It is the way he was turned into a god and given divinity status that also is questionable. The dogma of Christianity is one that you have to believe or you will be sent to Hell. The people make up the rules as they go along, as Limbo was a place that was recently abolished by the Church. Mary was given Perpetual Virgin status in the 19th Century (and was given Virgin Status in the 4th Century.)

I like the older ways of our ancient ancestors. They looked at nature and were at one with it. They knew more about their spirituality than we are allowed to know. (Christians need to go to church or have a pastor/priest tell them what the Bible means.) The Earth (Terra or Gaea) is a living entity that we need to care for, and Christianity tells its followers to do as they please to it.

There is Jesus the man and teacher, then there is Christianity the dogma/religion. One is a real person who preached peace, love and knowledge, the other is a man made conception to keep power in a select few.

Does this answer your question, NJ?

Goddess Bless,

Lloyd

Yes Loyd, thanks for giving me a better understanding of why you feel the weay you do towards Christianity, that is all I was asking for and I appreciate you thorough mature answer..

kidflash2008 wrote:

I do not have a problem with the message of Jesus' teachings. I do have a problem with the dogma of Christianity, and the people who are in charge of it.

One problem I have is the recent sex/pedophile scandal of the Catholic Church. The Church did their very best to sweep it under the rug, and then Pope John Paul II did not say anything to condemn it. Paying off people and basically acting like a corruptly run government or corporation is not a way to gain back parishioners.

Another problem I have is the very violent past of the Church and the refusal to deal with it. When the soldiers asked who to go after when they were sent against the peaceful Cathars, the Pope responded: "Kill them all. God will recognize his own." They then went on to slaughter over 30,000 men women and children. The Spanish Inquisition also tortured and burned to death many thousands of people who were deemed heretics or unbelievers. Add to that the many people executed for witchcraft and other sorts of trials, and there is a very bloody past.

The Church is finally recognizing some of its historic wrongdoings. They recently pardoned Galileo for his crime of stating the Earth revolved around the Sun.

Again, Jesus' teachings of peace and love are not a problem. It is the way he was turned into a god and given divinity status that also is questionable. The dogma of Christianity is one that you have to believe or you will be sent to Hell. The people make up the rules as they go along, as Limbo was a place that was recently abolished by the Church. Mary was given Perpetual Virgin status in the 19th Century (and was given Virgin Status in the 4th Century.)

I like the older ways of our ancient ancestors. They looked at nature and were at one with it. They knew more about their spirituality than we are allowed to know. (Christians need to go to church or have a pastor/priest tell them what the Bible means.) The Earth (Terra or Gaea) is a living entity that we need to care for, and Christianity tells its followers to do as they please to it.

There is Jesus the man and teacher, then there is Christianity the dogma/religion. One is a real person who preached peace, love and knowledge, the other is a man made conception to keep power in a select few.

Does this answer your question, NJ?

Goddess Bless,

Lloyd

I can't defend or offer up excuses for the ways of mankind during the history of the world, all I can try and do is be a better person myself and try and live my life according to God's will and not my own , I strive to live my life as a living sacrifice to God. As human beings we all fall short and are sinners , we don't understand all the mysteries of the world and why things are the way they are, but the Bible gives us all the answers we need as human beings, and beyond the Bible the word of God and into our everyday lives with the power of the Holy Spirit and the protection of the blood of Jesus against the enemy.
We are living in a spiritual warfare, and yes we see the ugly things translate into the physical realm we are in, as you point out.
Satan is a powerful angel who is bent on destroying Christianity, so when you see the church come under fire as in any war, you can see some ugly things happening , but remembere what Jesus told us , "not even the gates of hell shall prevail against the church" , as you are seeing, souls are choosing their sides as we speak ... some are choosing to heed the call of God , while others hear satans voice and take up for him by attacking God and his church . Everything you say may be true , but consider too that you may be rejecting God's call due to the acts of what others did in the past , don't allow what others did to stop you from aligning with God...if you do that , then satans work has kept you from following God, sometimes we have to look at the bigger picture and be able to see between the lines and outside the box ... there is a lot of deception at work and satan is the master ... he wants for all mankibnd to hate the church and reject Gods word and the Savior Jesus Christ.

The main teaching of Jesus is the quest for knowledge. I adhere to that teaching and am reading up on many subjects and seeing the world myself. Knowledge is the key to this world, and that is what the Gnostic Christians were about before being kicked out of the Church. It does seem that the modern church is against knowledge as they state Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge which was forbidden. The teaching of the church that knowledge is a bad thing troubles me. Some may say it is Satan's work, but it is also a control measure. If one keeps the people ignorant, they will not rebel against the system in place no matter how crooked it is.

The church itself is man made, just like the Bible was written by men.

The truth is it is not about good or evil, wrong or right. It is and always will be about power. A few people want to keep the power in their hands, and if the common people can learn about spirituality themselves then those in power lose it.

Goddess Bless,

Lloyd

Wow, this truly is a wonderful place and how lucky are we to be able to freely and sometimes strongly disagree with one another! After reading everyone's reply to warfare in heaven it is apparent that religon is still a touchy subject. Wether your defending or attacking beliefs, either is mundane. I was raised in a Pentecostal church and left for some time. After wandering around in this world and having two sons I have recently begin to seek God again. We can argue back and forth all day long about what or who is right but that's not very productive. As far as attacking christianity goes, our faith does not need defending. It certainly doesn't require lashing out to those who disagree. How are we as christians suppose to show the world God's unconditional love and mercy if we are brow beating everyone to death. It's exactly that kind of behaviour that has caused the world to "buck up" against the church. Mankind has gotten alot of what Jesus taught skewed a bit since the beginning of christianity, judaism, etc. For as long as there has been a God there has been killings in his name, in every religion. Why as men do we feel the need to show God's truth and grace with a sword? Has anyone actually read the bible? Even as the roman soldiers nailed Him to the cross he asked that they be forgiven. We can only reach out to this world with His love, not His wrath. Besides if your faith is solely based upon the fact that if you don't believe you'll suffer the consequences, then apparently you have no walk with God. It is out of the love I have for Him that I choose to follow. And it is out of trust, that I kneel to Him
in prayer, not fear. Now as far as the Bible being water down through the ages, all you have to do is read it
to see that God has preserved His Word through the test of time. There are countless prophecies in the
Old Testament that have come to pass, some in the New Testament. (The birth of Jesus) There are
some that have yet come to pass. And besides let's not forget that this is called faith not religion, and we all
know that faith is believing without seeing. But I promise you that from my own experience God is real and
He loves us all. For the first time in my life I feel alive and I see His hand doing works in my life. So instead of
seeing who is the better theologian or who's God is bigger, why don't we work together to understand these
great mysteries in and around our world? I love discussing religion, but after all religion is man made,
God is not. In fact the word religion (I believe) is only mentioned once in the Bible. And as far as I can tell
I haven't read anything that would leave me feelling attacked. I just see confused souls in a world that has
way to many popcorn religions. I hope I haven't offended anyone, and if I have forgive me.

Kidflash, i cannot speak for all churches in this world. Lord knows the roman catholics were extensively against the bible being translated into english or even saints reading it. Many other's use ignorance as weapon too. The Bible speaks expressively about this very thing. But as a whole the church that God intended does not preach against knowledge. Before Lucifer rebelled against God there was no right or wrong, there was no sin.
God did not want us to know suffering, sorrow, painful labor, even death. When he created Adam and Eve he did not want them to have the knowledge of good and evil, less there be evil. You see it was Lucifer's plan for them to eat of the tree of life next, that they may be immortal and help Lucifer march on God's throne. If nothing else it was Lucifer's way of taking a stab at God. You see the more he makes us suffer, the more our Heavenly Father suffers. Lucifer is a great magician and he has a firm grip on this world because he knows his time is short. God does not want any of us to fall short of his calling, but it is exactly our ability to fall short that endears Him to us. We have free will, so when we choose to follow him it is genuinely because we want to. So you see, it is impossible to believe anyone claiming to be of God and using "knowledge is evil" to keep a reign on the flock. God created us with the abililty to choose, and choosing leads to decisions and decisions lead
to consequences, and consequences lead to knowledge. The Tree of Knowledge was not a tree of immense wisdom. It was understanding, but God did not intend for us to understand the nature of good and evil,
because he understood how hard it would be for us to comprehend. (just take a look at the news sometime,
the montrosities we are capable of are appalling). With this knowledge came pain, misery, and sorrow, which
Lucifer knew and primarily his goal: making humans suffer, because God holds us so high. Think about this,
God is omnipotent, so he knew Lucifer would rebel and decieve millions of his beloved creation and take a
third of God's angels with him, but he created him anyway. Because if he didn't it would conflict with God's
understanding of free will. He had to create him and let him make that choice because simply it was the
right thing to do.