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 Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers

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Jocariah
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:21 pm

Mike Good "Quote"....""Belief systems are thought processes, shaped by what you believe to be "true". Thought processes do not HAVE to follow what you believe to be true, but they most usually do, at least the ones we give credence to. ""

Hi Mike,

I don’t see myself having a belief system, per se.

I neither believe nor disbelieve – because disbelief is simply a belief that a matter is not so… so with regard to belief, I choose to remain neutral.

Instead, I choose to look at a matter as being either interesting to me (at the time) or not. If it appears interesting to me, I entertain it, if not, I don’t entertain it.

Now simply because I entertain a matter, does not mean I need to buy into it (as I call it) or make any decisions about it – decisions, in a practical sense, are not always necessary. And when they are, specific information (or due diligence) on the matter usually makes any necessary decisions clearer.

From my perspective, there’s a lot of unnecessary believing, disbelieving and decision-making going on out there. However, it does help add to the illusion that one is in control, and some folks might need that in their life.

Alfred Lehmberg "Quote"....I'd heard just recently that "belief" is a toxic commodity best left to one who wants to stop thinking" ..etc.

Hi Alfred,

Thanks for posting your remarks. That's an interesting way of looking at it.

Cheers,
Jocariah

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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:59 pm

Jocariah wrote:

Belief systems are neither good nor bad, neither right nor wrong. They simply are a system utilized to establish an overall operating system if you will, for the individual.

Our belief system then, is rather like a computers operating system. We use our belief system as a program of sorts, to sort through everything, which we encounter within our world. We use it to categorize and file those things, which we encounter. ...even such things as UFO's and aliens.

Our long-held belief systems will often cause us to act irrationally, and illogically at times - even holding on to such systems regardless of any and all evidence to the contrary. For this is 'our' system, which we so often defend, even with our very lives - it's all that we know, and all that we have. To undermine it, would therefore undermine everything we know or have known, everything, which we've reasoned out based or built upon this belief system.

Jocariah,

The above quote highlighted in white is an idea you expressed earlier which I interpret as a belief. It may not be YOUR belief, but it certainly is a common one throughout human history. I believe this idea is a complete misapprehension of the proper use of belief systems in our daily life.

If we cling to a belief system (B.S.) like a drowning man to a life raft, then any thing or event which threatens our precious B.S. becomes a life shattering, discombobulating tragedy? This is utter baloney: it is a complete loss of intellectual perspective. It is the tail wagging a very stupid dog.

Let's put this into our current cultural B.S. language so that it is easier to grasp. In science, it is said that "whenever evidence comes along that runs contrary to the theory, then the theory must change". If we actually believe this assertion to be true (I know I do), then clinging to an old bit of B.S. that has proven to be false is a willful act of ignorance. It is the "rational" mind saying: I would rather stay stupid, misinformed and wrong about things.

Do I need to point out that this is irrational? Shocked

It is for this reason that belief systems should be: 1). Temporary 2). Held gently and casually and 3). dropped like a bad habit at the first sign that they are invalid.

While I will support the concept that NJwitness has a right to believe whatever he may wish, it seems to me that trying to jam the UFO thing into a religious perspective is a bit like going through your life with those weird blue and red 3-D glasses on: It will pointlessly "color" and distort anything you look at. It will cause you to see the world differently from the way others see it (except those who also wear similar distortion lenses). And most of all, it will prevent you from seeing things as they are, rather than as they appear through your weird, self imposed, distortion lenses.

NJwitness uses the Bible. I could just as easily use the book "The Wizard of Oz" or utilize the belief systems of natives of the Amazon rain forest. Each one will give me a different view of what my human experiences, UFOs, or whatever else I might encounter may mean.

But my point is this: a belief system is just a self imposed "rule book" which does not necessarily have anything to do with what we experience. It is an abstraction, and if it is off the mark, a misapprehending distraction. We need our language and our basic understandings to get by. But we should not confuse these applied systems with what actually happens in that place we call reality.

Experience does not necessarily follow our subjective rule books. Believing that it should is only a self imposed delusion. For this reason, it is best to take off those distorting lenses if we have any hope of discovering what reality REALLY is all about. cyclops
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:13 pm

Mike Good "Quote"...""It is for this reason that belief systems should be: 1). Temporary 2). Held gently and casually and 3). dropped like a bad habit at the first sign that they are invalid.""

Why do we need a 'Belief System'?

Let it go altogether ... not temporarily, permanently ...don't hold it gently or casually ... just let it go altogether, and move on.

Belief systems are what hold us back.

Cheers,
Jocariah

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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:16 pm

Alfred Lehmberg wrote:
I'd heard just recently that "belief" is a toxic commodity best left to one who wants to stop thinking because "belief" discounts antithesis... where antithesis is absolutely required for efficacious thinking. There is no "up" if there is no antithetical "down." I paraphrase.

Indubitably.

Belief also convinces us that we already "know" stuff: Thus, obviating the need for any further inquiry. To believe something to be "true" is to stop the mind from expanding beyond whatever "belief box" you have cleverly entrapped it in.

I think that consciousness can be expanded infinitely. Putting up barriers around our mind, warm and fuzzy little beliefs that keep it closed and confined, is an act of intellectual suicide.

It seems some would rather strangle the mind than let it breathe. scratch


Last edited by Mike Good on Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:30 pm

Jocariah wrote:
Mike Good "Quote"...""It is for this reason that belief systems should be: 1). Temporary 2). Held gently and casually and 3). dropped like a bad habit at the first sign that they are invalid.""

Why do we need a 'Belief System'?

Let it go altogether ... not temporarily, permanently ...don't hold it gently or casually ... just let it go altogether, and move on.

Belief systems are what hold us back.

Cheers,
Jocariah


.

Jocariah,

The above posting is an expression of a belief system. You expressed your belief that belief systems should be rejected.

Do you not see the paradox here? Shocked

You cannot live in our world without having a belief system! You have to believe that putting one foot in front of the other will cause you to eventually get somewhere. You have to believe that typing on your computer keyboard will send a message to others on this website. You have to believe that the word "you" is spelled Y - O - U.

These are all beliefs that will stand you in good stead. Would you reject them too? You can just type gibberish into your computer keyboard if you don't like that spelling "belief system".

What you do not have to believe in is "good and evil", or that there was a thing called the "Big Bang" and that this big hairy explosion accidentally created the whole entire universe. (whoopsie!) These things are nonsense inspired by the need for warm and fuzzy "explanations". It does not matter that these nonsensical explanations have nothing to do with "reality".... Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:04 pm

MIKE GOOD WRITES .... It does not matter that these nonsensical explanations have nothing to do with "reality"...



But how does MIKE GOOD determine between what is "nonsensical explanations" and what is "Truth" ?

MIKE or anyone else, is capable of making a "wrong choice" in what he believes, so for MIKE to jump to the conclussion that a Biblical Perspective on the UFO issue is a "nonsensical explanation" without offering reasons why or proof to the contrary makes his statement look foolish and holds no merit or credibility.

Without any evidence to support his theory it ends up coming across as just another "lost soul who has chosen to reject God and is repulsed by any mention of God or the Bible" ... just another "disgruntled, lost, searching to be different, blame-it-on-everyone else, blowing in the wind, whatever feels good, whats in it for me, I don't need a God, why can't I be God, why does my parents religion have to be right afterall when I wanna be different, they'll have to drag me into reality kicking and screaming because I just don't want to accept that this is what life is all about(God) I wanted it to be about me reaching a higher level of conciousness so that I can feel like a God....yada, yada, yada ..when you don't state any reasons why.

It fits right into the "rebellious attitude" of a lost man who is rejecting God at all costs, not even able to present a case as to why .... just a flat-out dismissal of the Bible as out of hand nonsense. But why can't you tell us why its nonsense ? its easy to call each others beliefs and opinions nonsense, but it ruins the spirit of the discussion when we can't explain why its nonsense. You can't disprove what the Bible says, but you can at least tell us why you would reject what it says, you're able to state your opinions on everything else without a problem, why not do the same here and logically tell us why you are so close-minded towards the God of the Bible...I'd be interested to hear your answer, I respect your right to choose your own beliefs, but i'd like to know your reason why you would reject teh possibility that the Bible might be right.

thank you
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:19 pm

Mike Good "Quote"....""Jocariah,

The above posting is an expression of a belief system. You expressed your belief that belief systems should be rejected.

Do you not see the paradox here?""


Sorry, I don't see that - this isn’t semantics, no circular logic or paradoxes here. I don’t have a belief system, just like I don’t have a pickup truck. Pickup trucks are okay if you need them, but I don’t.

What is it that I need to believe in … please tell me?

Mike Good "Quote"....""You have to believe that typing on your computer keyboard will send a message to others on this website. You have to believe that the word "you" is spelled Y - O - U.""

No, I don’t believe it’ll get through – I do however think the probability is high that it will, since others have. I also think the probability is high that the sun will rise again – but truth is, it may not.

And likewise, emails, PM's and the like, may never arrive, either.

It's all a crap shot...really. Enter the laws of probability.

This isn't complicated stuff here, honestly - it only becomes complicated when we try to dance with two partners at the same time. Then we have to have all of these endlessly convoluted 'sub-programs' as if to rationalize it all out.

Belief systems are what hold us back.... get ride of them. This isn’t conjecture or some postulation, or theory that I imagined one day. I don't have a belief system.

Thank you for posting your thoughts here.

Cheers,
Jocariah

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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:46 pm

Jocariah wrote:
Mike Good "Quote"....""Jocariah,

The above posting is an expression of a belief system. You expressed your belief that belief systems should be rejected.

Do you not see the paradox here?""


Sorry, I don't see that - this isn’t semantics, no circular logic or paradoxes here. I don’t have a belief system, just like I don’t have a pickup truck. Pickup trucks are okay if you need them, but I don’t.

.

Hey J,

Sorry, the problem IS semantics. The definition I was aiming for with "belief" is this one from the dictionary: "To accept as real or true".

Anything that you accept as real or true is a belief. This also includes those things which you believe subconsciously, even if you are unable to acknowledge them as your conscious beliefs. So, a belief system is the sum total of all the things you believe.

It is simply that you are not acknowledging some of the things you believe as being beliefs.... ? confused

LakehurstNJwitness wrote:


You can't disprove what the Bible says, but you can at least tell us why you would reject what it says, you're able to state your opinions on everything else without a problem, why not do the same here and logically tell us why you are so close-minded towards the God of the Bible...I'd be interested to hear your answer, I respect your right to choose your own beliefs, but i'd like to know your reason why you would reject teh possibility that the Bible might be right.

thank you

NJwitness,

You said, "You can't disprove what the Bible says."

Absolutely, very true. You also cannot prove that it is true; which is equally true. So, what we have here is a book which does have some corroborating evidence: it agrees, in the larger picture (if not in detail), with many other cultural mythologies and oral traditions.

But what you are asking is why I do not believe in the particular prescribed story that is in this one particular book called the bible. If you want to believe that particular story, there are literally dozens of different versions of it that you can choose from: you have the Hindu Veddas and the Sumerian myths promoted by Sitchin (these two are the earliest known versions of the oldest of the bible stories, and so have not been corrupted so much by time language and interpretation), the Norse Myths, the Myths of Rome and Greece, the traditions of the peoples of Polynesia, the myths of many different indigenous tribes in Africa, such as the Dogon, The traditions of the indigenous peoples of North America, South America, Asia, Australia and others which I have not included.

Most of these stories do not include the later bible additions of a singular "God" or concepts of heaven and hell, or good and evil.

So, if I should use this story as the basis for what I know about UFOs, which version of this practically universal myth should I use? Would you be offended if I chose a version of the story which did not hold those little bits you find so compelling?

It is a bit like buying one book on UFOs and using that as the explanation for everything about UFOs. What if the book was by Michael Shermer? Then I would have to believe that UFOs simply do not exist, Shermer said so! Maybe he is right. Maybe that thing I saw was not a UFO.

But it was a flying object, and I was unable to identify it. That makes it a UFO regardless of what Shermer believes. So, Shermer's belief system is out of accordance with my personal experience.

If I believe his book than I have to believe that my experience was not what it was. That is rejecting what is real: my experience, in the face of something which is contrived: a belief system gotten from a book. This, of course, is dumb.

In my above postings I already answered your question. I was saying that a belief system will distort your perception of your experiences. It may encourage you to believe things which may not be true.

You took one small line out of context and made your argument about that. In the context of my above postings is the answer to your question. I think what most bothered you is that I was not buying into your particular belief, when I was actually talking about all beliefs in general.

To sum up: "Belief convinces us that we already "know" stuff: Thus, obviating the need for any further inquiry. To believe something to be "true" is to stop the mind from expanding beyond whatever "belief box" you have cleverly entrapped it in."

I think that expresses it pretty clearly....

Cheers!!

Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:10 am

MIKE POSTS ....

I think that expresses it pretty clearly....

Cheers!!

Mike


I didn't copy & paste you entire answer but I did read it thoroughly and I commend you on a "good job" !

I guess it's hard for a believer in christianity like myself, to imagine how another rationalizes it all away as "another choice, another option" ... but I do now get a sense of how and why you might not accept it as a "truth and a life thru faith", but it does sadden me when I think about it.

The bible says that some will have ears that hear Gods call , it will make sense to them and they will know it deep in their hearts, they won't have to intellectualize it, they will know it and gravitate towards the call .... others will not.

I try and understand the logic and thinking of those who don't accept it as the way and the truth ... thats why I asked you, and I thank you for the thorough response.

I sometimes think of it in terms outside of religion and belief systems .... just so I can try and comprehend why a person wouldn't accept the christianity story with all his heart and soul .... what if ....
what if ...
Lots of people were staying in a huge fancy skyscraper hotel in some vacation resort, the owner of the hotel was "God" .... the guests staying at the hotel were "the human race" .... now along comes a bad man (satan) who hates the owner of the hotel, so he starts a fire in the hotel ...
now people are upstairs in their rooms enjoying themselves and living life, they have no idea that the place is on fire , all of the bottom floors are engulfed in flames and there's no way out alive! But the guests have no idea, they have no idea that their lives are in jeapordy.

Now eventually an off-duty fireman races to the scene in his street clothes , he calls for a ladder truck to extend up to the 10th floor .... he races up the ladder and and enters the smokey hallways ....calling out .... calling for the people to follow his voice, calling for them to save their lives by following him ...

some of the people hear his voice and go towards it ... but others look out into the smokey hallway and refuse to go ...

"I can't see him ... how am I to trust that he is the way?"

"I'll find my own way" ...

But little do they know the flames are only one floor below them and are about to explode .... there's not much time !


I hear the voice of God calling me, and I know he's the truth from deep in my heart.
Now I don't know why I can hear him and choose to follow him, and others can't.
Maybe it's a blessing , maybe its a gift from God that I can hear him, I'm not exactly sure why ...but I am sure that the Bible warns that some will hear and know the call, and others will not.

Its all very mysterious, but I do know in my heart that God is a loving God and a God of mercy. I do believe there are evil forces in play working against God and that they use deception as their number one tool.

And it is not for me to judge ... I respect you for who you are and you do sound like a very nice person, regardless of where you are in your current beliefs. But I have a feeling that someday you may reconsider , and if that day comes and you turn to God ...all the angels in heaven will rejoice ! Now wouldn't you want heaven to rejoice over something that you decided to do? lol

thanks and peace be with you
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:58 am

Mike Good "Quote"...""Hey J,

Sorry, the problem IS semantics. The definition I was aiming for with "belief" is this one from the dictionary: "To accept as real or true"".


It’s appears as semantics, merely so, based on your belief system.

We aren’t discussing beliefs here, per se, but rather our ‘belief system’ - that system that we use to foundationalize our existence here. That system of beliefs that constantly get amended and reinforced as we go through life - that system that houses, if you will, all of our preconceived notions that we carry around.

Our belief system is that system that we use to see the world, in context.

It is that system that typically gets passed down to us from our parents, teachers and authority figures, such as church leaders, and the like - from generation to generation.

Mike Good "Quote"...""It is simply that you are not acknowledging some of the things you believe as being beliefs....""

No, I’m simply saying I have NO belief system.

A difficult concept to grasp, for sure – but again I ask you, ...“Why do I need a belief system?”

At any rate, perhaps, this is the point at which we now should agree to disagree.

Thanks once again for the insight into your thought process.

Cheers,
Jocariah

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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:50 am

.

Mike, perhaps I should explain further - I think I may be contributing more than my share, with regard to our lack of understanding what it is we are saying to each other.

You've said, that, with regard to beliefs, your definition is "To accept as real or true"".

I don't necessarily agree with your definition, but for conversation sake, let's say that I do.

Ask a Christian if they believe in God and Jesus and they’ll say …“yes…of course”

Even though they have never seen God or Jesus. Why is that? Well, it’s called ‘Faith’. The writers of the New Testament were smart enough to write into their teachings, what I call a ‘closed loop’. You need ‘faith’ in the unseen – without that, you are NOT a good ‘Christian’…. closed loop.

Things don't pan out for you as a Christian, even though you prayed and prayed to your unseen God...well, your 'faith' was NOT strong enough. Work on your 'faith'....closed loop.

Is Christianity a ‘belief system’ …yes.

That is specifically the kind of thing I DON’T have.

Are belief systems neccesary ...yes. For all people...no. Use it if you need it, if you don't need it, you don't use it.

Now, as an example, lets discuss my (and my wife) seeing a black helicopter hovering just a few feet over the top of my roof. It was big, it was loud, it damn near shook the windows out of my condo, is scared us both, etc.

I saw it - the wife saw it ... but do I "accept it as real or true"?

No ... I saw it, the wife saw it, but to my way of thinking, it might have been real, or it might have been a hologram, or it might have been an image planted in our minds, or a host of other possibilities, to which I might not be aware.

In short, other possibilities exist.

The same holds true with ALL of my many experiences with aliens. I have had first-hand experience with them, but is/was that experience real or true ...again, who can say - not me.

Again, other possibilities exist.

For me, and perhaps this is not right for others, I don't think in terms of “real or true” with regard to our 'belief systems' - perhaps our group reality is merely a mental image on a large scale. Who can say with any certainty? Not me.

From my perspective, we are the product of a higher order and 'belief systems' are used to control us, as sheep.

Do I believe this? ...no! ...is it a fact?...no!

No fact, no truth, not real.... but I think the probability exists, based on my experiences.

And I also think that the probability exists that the sun my not come up on Saturday…it’s all a crapshoot.

So how do I live?

I live in the 'now' ... I do what's in front of me... I have no belief system.

Quoting myself from a prior post on another forum, ..."Without a belief system, one is FREE to entertain all things that one finds of interest – without having a vested interest in preserving, protecting, holding on to, fighting for or against, any particular ‘belief system’, the world then becomes a more enjoyable and open place in which to exist."

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Jocariah

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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:28 pm

Jocariah wrote:
Mike Good "Quote"...""Hey J,

Sorry, the problem IS semantics. The definition I was aiming for with "belief" is this one from the dictionary: "To accept as real or true"".


It’s appears as semantics, merely so, based on your belief system.


Your failure to acknowledge your beliefs as a "belief system" is, frankly, puzzling. If we could physically pour all of your beliefs out of your head and see them in a pile on the floor - THAT PILE- would be your belief system.

You acknowledge that I have a belief system and I concur. We all have belief systems. You cannot function in our society without a core of beliefs. But you completely ignore your own beliefs because you believe it is better for you to do this. To whit:


Jocariah wrote:


No, I’m simply saying I have NO belief system.


THAT, my friend, is a statement of a belief! You believe you have no beliefs. You seem completely oblivious to the fact that this belief is paradoxical and nonsensical, and thus demonstrably false.


Jocariah wrote:


A difficult concept to grasp, for sure – but again I ask you, ...“Why do I need a belief system?”


To function? Here is a common cultural belief: it is unhealthy to step in front of a rapidly moving bus.

Since you have no beliefs about this, my guess is that you would happily step in front of such a bus to prove that you are "free" of any beliefs. That would be one demonstration which would convince me that your claim for lacking a belief system is true.

However, I believe that such an act would not be good for your health. So, I respectfully request that you DO NOT demonstrate your lack of beliefs for us.

Thanks! What a Face


Jocariah wrote:


We aren’t discussing beliefs here, per se, but rather our ‘belief system’ - that system that we use to foundationalize our existence here. That system of beliefs that constantly get amended and reinforced as we go through life - that system that houses, if you will, all of our preconceived notions that we carry around.

Our belief system is that system that we use to see the world, in context.


Well, yes we are talking about beliefs. Your beliefs and your belief systems are synonymous. If you have two beliefs, and I am sure you have more than just the two, then that constitutes a belief system. I have defined two for you already: you don't believe in beliefs AND stepping on front of moving buses is unhealthy. I can also assume, that since you are posting here, you have some notions that there are such things as UFOs.

Those three beliefs alone constitute a belief system! affraid

What you are talking about is core philosophy or the basic ontological underpinnings we utilize to grasp our human experience. For instance, your concept that believing that holding a core philosophy is counterproductive is actually a philosophy known as SKEPTICISM. I suggest you look that up.

Or, if you like you can read my posting about it on the UFO Magazine blog titled "Science Skepticism and Belief". You may have to go back many pages to find it, but it is there. Or, if you like, I can PM you a copy of the text.

But I should point out that the philosophy known as skepticism is a "BELIEF SYSTEM"! Sorry J, there is absolutlely no getting around that....... Wink

Cheers!!

Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:02 pm

Mike,

If you consider my NOT having a belief system, my belief system, who am I to say otherwise.

Thanks again for taking time to share your thoughts - as always, they were a great read.

Cheers,
Jocariah

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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:14 pm

LakehurstNJwitness wrote:

I guess it's hard for a believer in christianity like myself, to imagine how another rationalizes it all away as "another choice, another option" ...

Thanks NJ for a calm and thoughtful response. Very Happy

The truth is that all beliefs or belief systems are optional. This is a fact of reality. We as individuals, believe what we choose to believe. BUT, those beliefs are always guided by our language, our culture, upbringing and education. We all choose from this big cultural data file to make up our individual belief systems.

It is one of the great tragedies of religion that it demands that we accept ONE set of beliefs in favor of all others. If we accept one particular set of beliefs or stories as "the Truth", then by definition we must define all others as false. This is an instant division, the very thing that most religion was designed to relieve!

If as you say, everything under heaven is the creation of God, and if he is a charitable and munificent God, (as opposed to the wrathful fire and brimstone version of a Christian God) that He must love all of his creations equally. So, how can you condemn some of God's creations as evil and unworthy creations?

AND, most importantly, if we read the "Sermon on the Mount" we find that Jesus is, above all else, a promoter of peace and harmony. He tells us to love our enemies, for Christ's sake! He tells us we must do this because God loves all his creations - equally.

How can you reconcile this fact with the divisiveness of exhaltations and condemnations of "good and evil", when as I stated in a previous post, such terms are relative. They are, in fact, interchangeable depending on which side you are on: One man's "Freedom Fighter" is another man's "Terrorist". And, if we believe what Jesus said in his sermon: THEY ARE BOTH TERRORISTS!

Boy, talk about mixing up all of this good and evil stuff because of those darn inevitable individual points of view! Suspect

So, religion, that supposed great movement of human Unity has, practically from day one, been the major moving force of divisiveness and disunity. The great unifier of men is the great divider precisely because it demands that we BELIEVE. This demand for limited belief is in dissonance with a world that provides us so many choices.


LakehurstNJwitness wrote:

And it is not for me to judge ... I respect you for who you are and you do sound like a very nice person, regardless of where you are in your current beliefs. But I have a feeling that someday you may reconsider , and if that day comes and you turn to God ...all the angels in heaven will rejoice ! Now wouldn't you want heaven to rejoice over something that you decided to do? lol

thanks and peace be with you



Thanks NJ! Same to you as well...... cheers

Despite the belief thing, you and I are not so different. I think that the Sermon on the Mount was precisely right. Jeseus said the same thing that all of the great sages have said all along: 1). that the universe is one great unity. 2). that if we want to live in a world of peace and harmony we must have compassion and love all others as we love ourselves. 3). compassion and love for all creation is the only path to salvation.

I agree with those things. The only difference is that I learned them from a great number of sources, while you got them from only the one. Perhaps if you expanded your horizons a bit beyond the one source, you will be able to see that this stuff is common knowledge, from any number of sources, to those who seek it. And the varying viewpoints make the whole thing much more coherent.....

Cheers!! study

Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:56 pm

Jocariah wrote:
Mike,

If you consider my NOT having a belief system, my belief system, who am I to say otherwise.

Thanks again for taking time to share your thoughts - as always, they were a great read.

Cheers,
Jocariah


.

Hello J,

I did neglect to say this: I also believe skepticism is a good philosophy! It is a belief system that I whole heartedly share with you, as much as I am willing and able to do......

"willing and able to do" - Now there's the big ugly fly in the ointment! lol!

Cheers!!

Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:59 am

MIKE GOOD WRITES IN HIS RESPONSE TO NJ ....Despite the belief thing, you and I are not so different. I think that the Sermon on the Mount was precisely right. Jeseus said the same thing that all of the great sages have said all along: 1). that the universe is one great unity. 2). that if we want to live in a world of peace and harmony we must have compassion and love all others as we love ourselves. 3). compassion and love for all creation is the only path to salvation.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


NJ RESPONDS BACK .....

MIKE , I THINK YOUR 3 POINTS ABOVE MIGHT GIVE US A GLIMPSE INTO WHY AND HOW YOU AND OTHERS LIKE YOU ARE EASILY CONFUSED , MISGUIDED AND DECEIVED ....

You are not being accurate when you say that Jesus taught and preached that there is no such thing as evil ... he did not say that we should blindly love "anything" that comes along in this creation , he knew there was an evil element in this creation and he warned us to only follow him ... he did not give a carte blanch pass to go follow any path that "might look similar" because he knew the art of decpeption employed by satan would try and "mimic" his message to trick people into not obeying Jesus and taking a "different path". Jesus was very clear that the only way was thru "HIM".

He never said the path to "salvation" was by showing campassion and love for "all creation" ... that would include loving satan and demonic spirits and fallen angels, of course that wouldn't be preached by Jesus as you wrongly state .... no, Jesus clearly stated that the only way to salvation was thru him.

Your expanded horizons are not clear, you're fogged and hazy on what Jesus said about such things ... which fits into how satan works , by using confusion and deception ..to trick people by "prettying up" the deception to make people think its all flowery and sweet smelling ...but in essence its a clear rejection of Jesus.
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:28 pm

LakehurstNJwitness wrote:

NJ RESPONDS BACK .....

MIKE , I THINK YOUR 3 POINTS ABOVE MIGHT GIVE US A GLIMPSE INTO WHY AND HOW YOU AND OTHERS LIKE YOU ARE EASILY CONFUSED , MISGUIDED AND DECEIVED ....

...but in essence its a clear rejection of Jesus.

NJ,

Well, I am sorry for assuming that we have some common ground here. I am no expert on Jesus or Christianity. But if Jesus really taught what you say here, then you are right, I reject him.

Dividing the world into good/bad, us/them, love Jesus/don't love Jesus is just a recipe for a world of conflict, violence and injustice. That is very much NOT the picture depicted by the Sermon on the mount. Either you have been deluded about what Jesus ACTUALLY said, or he was not as bright as I thought he was.

Either way, it is a shame.
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:13 pm

Who climbs down the rabbit hole into someone else’s belief system?

.
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:54 am

Mike Good wrote:
LakehurstNJwitness wrote:

NJ RESPONDS BACK .....

MIKE , I THINK YOUR 3 POINTS ABOVE MIGHT GIVE US A GLIMPSE INTO WHY AND HOW YOU AND OTHERS LIKE YOU ARE EASILY CONFUSED , MISGUIDED AND DECEIVED ....

...but in essence its a clear rejection of Jesus.

NJ,

Well, I am sorry for assuming that we have some common ground here. I am no expert on Jesus or Christianity. But if Jesus really taught what you say here, then you are right, I reject him.

Dividing the world into good/bad, us/them, love Jesus/don't love Jesus is just a recipe for a world of conflict, violence and injustice. That is very much NOT the picture depicted by the Sermon on the mount. Either you have been deluded about what Jesus ACTUALLY said, or he was not as bright as I thought he was.

Either way, it is a shame.


I'm sorry if I came across too strong and it offended you, please don't take any of this discussion as a personal attack, keep in mind that i'm trying to get to the heart of the matter by peeling away the layers of the onion that keeps so many seperated and unable to discuss any of these topics in rational and calm way.

I believe one of the problems between how you and I differ on things is that you keep inter-twining Jesus' message to "mankind/humans" of Love one another and sermon on the mount , and the "spiritual warfare" going on behind the scenes, those other parts of creation that are not a part of mankind and this earthly creation.

the sermon on the mount was directed at "mankind/humans" on how we should all treat each other. Jesus cast evil spirits out of the crippled, lame , deaf and blind when he performed healing miracles , he cast those spirits out and never showed love towards anything evil.

I believe maybe you're confusing the "flesh/ human/mankind" laws of loving one another with a distorted message of "love everything and anything including spirits not of this flesh creation" ... Jesus' message was directed at "us fleshly humans" when he taught how we should love one another... he knew we were all in the same boat and were doomed to death ... thats why his message and purpose here was to be the sacrificial lamb whose blood would save us from certain death in the afterlife , he taught that anyone who followed him and accepted him as their savior would be protected by his blood at the end ... it's like a giant sifting ... a seperating of the chaff from the wheat.

For non-belivers it sounds harsh and mean, but for believers it's like a life-raft being available as the titanic goes down... believers are overwhelmed with thanks and gratitude for such an act of love to save them from death.

I feel like a passenger trying to tell you to trust the life-raft , and you're telling me the life-raft isn't what the trip is all about , you're trusting that the titanic will not sink and that you'll be ok without the "belief system of a life boat" ...

Jesus was clear in his message that "he is the only life boat available" , yes it sounds harsh, but it is what he says throughout the Bible.

The UFO thing fits right into all of this .... UFO's could and do act as if they are part of a spiritual plane and can materialize and vanish at will.

The UFO messages and spirits channeling messages all tend to steer away from "Jesus" as the savior and the way... so I have a legitimate reason to try and discuss the two issues of UFO's and The Bible and how they might be related. I think its an important part of any UFO discussion to include peoples different belief systems and how they might either jive with or go against certain belief systems. To stay away from such topics would be a diservice to the readers and viewers of the UFO magazine and TV shows... its an interesting topic for most. So my point is that i'm not trying to convert you to my belief system in christianity as much as i'm trying to present the case for how UFO's and Christianity might be related .

i believe people want to hear "all the posibilities" and since the country is made up of 75% christians , any smart marketing and sales manager would be wise to allow such a column to be includede in their magazine ... 75% of the population? how can you notwant to hear from their point of view on UFO"s ?? Better to include them in the discussion, even if you don't agree with their views...but why try and dismiss them as "Jesus wasn't too bright" just because you are not a believer in christianity?

Lets hear all opinions on the subject ... otherwise it appears as a field that attracts and is being run by a group of "new age, channeling spirits, heavens gate types of anti-christians" .... and that shouldn't be how the UFO field should be perceived by the world, lets open the discussion up for all points of view and not limit it to this "new age or nothing" mentality.

I appreciate you taking the time to try and hash this out though, you've been great.

This message is more directed at the editor of the magazine.. christians would love to see a column in your magazine dedicated to their perspective , wouldn't you want to attract that large subscription base by opening up the discussion? right now it seems to be driven by new age, channeling spirits, anti-christian types.
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:55 am

Jocariah wrote:
Who climbs down the rabbit hole into someone else’s belief system?
.

J,

Everybody! If you were raised in a culture you have been shoved down that predigested rabbit hole as a matter of course. There, again, is that belief system that you refuse to acknowledge.

But I get your point. I was not climbing down a rabbit hole but merely looking for common ground.

NJ,

I am not angry, but disappointed. I just happen to think that your philosophy, as stated here, is fatally flawed. Nice way to rationalize away the huge cognitive disconnect between what was said in the Sermon on the Mount and the church's pasted on "divide and conquer" ethos. If you go back and investigate those other mythologies and traditions I spoke about previously, you will find that this ham-fisted "good and evil" crap is ONLY a product of the Christian church and its heavily re-edited bible.

An actual investigation here could point up the common elements of the stories (i.e., those bits that have corroboration and thus are more likely to have roots in reality) and point up the areas where their is discord and more likely to be baloney. But you are probably not interested in that. It seems your primary interest is in selling your prepackaged belief system. As I said earlier: B.S.

This is part of the problem with the bible and christianity and religions in general: they are not utilized as methods of tolerance and bringing people together but rather, as convenient wedges to keep them apart and at each others throats.

If you find comfort in that, then I feel sorry for you. I suspect that Jesus would not approve. But maybe that is just me.
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:45 pm

Mike Good "Quote":

"J,

Everybody! If you were raised in a culture you have been shoved down that predigested rabbit hole as a matter of course. There, again, is that belief system that you refuse to acknowledge. ."


With all due respect, classifying my belief system, as you did, as being one of "skepticism”, was for your benefit alone, not mine. By so classifying it, you are now able to rest easier, knowing that there is no unresolved issue there, with regard to me, and my belief system - because you have resolved it. My belief system has been observed and classified by you …time to move on.

To my way of thinking, we all have a world-view, and our belief system, or lack thereof, fits into our world-view.

"But I get your point. I was not climbing down a rabbit hole but merely looking for common ground"

Trying to find common ground…why?

Why would or should we try to find common ground with anyone else’s belief system? After all, isn't our belief system truly and uniquely our own. If someone is happy with his or her belief system, and it serves them, Bravo…good for them. No need to bring logic into the belief system equation, is there? Furthermore, don't most belief system entail miracles, invisible Gods, angels, or the like? Where is the logic there?

It appears to me, again with all due respect, that your agenda is well established - to find and classify, regardless of anything that might run counter or be contrary to your pre-established world-view.

So I guess my next question is, do you ever find anything that you cannot classify?

Cheers
Jocariah

.
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PostSubject: TO: MIKE GOOD   Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:17 pm

Mike , I respect you and enjoy your comments and responses ... I know this subject is such a sticky topic for most to discuss, but thats why I respect you for at least showing enough "care and respect" for others even when they don't share your views or beliefs...thats very cool of you to take the high road and try and talk it out.

And I think its good for others to read too , from both points of view on this subject of religious beliefs and how they might relate to UFOlogy.

I do try and stay aware of all belief systems, but I keep finding that none compare to christianity and its unique message of grace and mercy from God. Most of the other beliefs seem to be based on "humanism" , christianity is based on us humans being lost and in need of mercy , love and grace from God ... its a love story and it takes a lot of backbone to be big enough to accept help from another , we tend to want the answers to come from us ... maybe its pride , but the act of being able to receive a gift such as salvation takes a great deal of humiliation and letting go , its not an easy step to take as a human being, to admit that we are lost as a human race and in need of help, that the answers do not , and have not , and appear that they never will come from us ...the world keeps becoming exactly what the Bible forecasted and warned it would become. How you can sit there and say you don't see evil in the world is astonishing to say the least, but I still value you and respect you , I think our discussion is a good thing for all.

Thanks !
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PostSubject: and another thing   Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:51 pm

one more thing Mike ...

I have arranged for you to be flown to the Vatican next week where you will stay while being trained for the priesthood. I know that deep in my heart this would be the best thing for you while you're going thru this rebellion...and with your artistic talents we can use you to paint some of the churces in the cities along the northeast ... new york, boston, philly and D.C. , you need to get away from california and all that new age stuff, healthy dieting, and sunshine,get down to some good old fashioned church-going religion, a roast beef dinner and cold wintery weather ...it does a person good to suffer sometimes.

I believe this might be the best thing for you, but please do not paint any UFO images on the ceilings of the cathedrals .... mike? you wouldn't do that would you ???
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:49 am

Well, there you have it.

LakehurstNJwitness has proven once again, that her
belief system is right for her, and her for it.

.
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PostSubject: Re: Juxtaposition Awakening Travelers   Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:56 am

Jocariah wrote:
Well, there you have it.

LakehurstNJwitness has proven once again, that her
belief system is right for her, and her for it.

.


WELL THERE YOU HAVE IT ....

Jocariah has proven once again, that she has no sense of humor, and that she hasn't raised her level of consciousness high enough to yet recognize humor nor the ability to laugh.
Must've missed the channeling on laughter.

lol
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