WARFARE IN HEAVEN

WARFARE IN HEAVEN



The Bible tells a titanic struggle between good and evil. We might enjoy reading about the clash between the forces of good and evil in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, but in the Scriptures, we read of a far more epic and cosmic conflict. The warfare between the kingdoms of light and darkness is waged not just over this earth, but in the heavenly realms too.

The universe was created for God's glory. The glory of God is the chief end of all creation. He created the universe to be under His sovereign rule, to be ordered according to His purposes. However, Satan one of His angels sought to usurp the throne of the most high. We read of this in the Old Testament:


Isaiah 14
12: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13: For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15: Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


Satan or Lucifer became lifted up by reason of his great beauty and privilege in God's eternal kingdom. He desired to exalt himself.

Satan was joined in his rebellion by many angels. Revelation 12 would suggest that a third of the angels joined with Satan. Satan thus established his own counterfeit kingdom in the heavens. Just as God has His angels who serve Him, Satan has his own angels. Together they make up a hierarchy of evil, for they are called thrones, dominions, principalities and powers. This kingdom of opposition will wage war until its final defeat by the kingdom of God.


When did this rebellion begin? The Scriptures do not tell us. However, it would seem that it began in prehistory before the creation week of Genesis 1. There are good reasons for thinking that there is a period in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. We cannot know how long and those who use this theory to explain geological time have many difficulties. Nevertheless, the state of formlessness in which we find the world in Genesis 1:2 is likely the result of Satan's original rebellion. Teh original would thus have been created to be inhabited and administered by angels, yet this creation fell into ruin and was replaced by the world in which we now dwell.

God closed the former dispensation of pre-history and began a new work with mankind. He entrusted to them the dominion of earth. Humanity, made a little lower than the angels was chosen to be the new custodians of God's kingdom.

Yet though Satan's original rebellion was judged and halted, he did not cease his war and corrupted the new creation by obtaining the loyalty of man. Through capturing the hearts of men, Satan was able to re-establish his rule over the world. So we find in Scripture that Satan is called the prince or god of this world. His kingdom holds sway over it. The apostle Paul tells of this kingdom of darkness and its influence over the world:


Ephesians 6
12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


We read in Daniel of a 'prince of Persia', no doubt a fallen angel of great power, who presumably exercised dominion over the heathen people of Persia. There are some Charismatic Christians who make much of 'Territorial spirits' and seek to do spiritual warfare against such beings. This is folly. We do not begin to have the knowledge to know how to fight such beings directly, nor do we need to know the details of how Satan's kingdom works in some particular location. The Christian should not trouble about the details of what territorial spirits there might be and rather fight through simple prayer and the preaching of the Word. That is our place in this cosmic conflict.

It is necessary to mention a second fall of angels. There are some who connect this with Satan, though there is not sufficent evidence to make that connection. This is the fall of the sons of God, in the time of Enoch and Noah, who saw that the daughters of women were fair, as we read in Genesis 6. From the wicked intermarriage of angels and humans came a race of giants who were wiped out in the flood (though the giants of Canaan were probably a similar race). It is likely that the demons are the disembodied spirits of these beings.

God wasted no time in judging the angels of this second rebellion:


Jude
6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



We do not know how the course of the warfare in heaven effects events on earth, but we have reason to believe there is some connection, however mysterious. Deborah sang of how the battle on earth was waged in heaven too:


Judges 5
20: They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.


Elisha's servant was given a vision of the legions of angels who were on the side of Elisha:


2 Kings 6
15: And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?
16: And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
17: And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.


The marvellous thing about this story is not the vision that the servant received, but that Elisha had no need for it. By faith he knew of the spiritual forces that were on his side.

We must not forget to look at Job. At the beginning of the book of Job, we see Satan in heaven with the sons of God. We learn from this story that Satan's actions are limited by God's control. Satan cannot act outside the sphere that God limits him to.


The warfare in heaven will come to a climax in the end times, at the middle of Daniel's Seventieth Week. We read in Revelation chapter 12:


7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.




Satan will be defeated in heaven and he and his angels will be sent down to earth. There he will aid the Beast and the Antichrist in opposing God on earth through persecuting the church and the remnant of Israel. Once he is expelled from heaven, Satan will no longer be able to domminate the affairs of earth with the same governmental authority. He will have to rely entirely on his human intermediaries. After the defeat of his followers at Armageddon, he will be bound for a thousand years. He will no longer be able to wreak havoc in the earth.

Once Satan is removed from heaven, the celesital realms are ready to be purified and made fresh. They shall burn with fire at Christ's coming, as we read in 2 Peter 3:12.
The removal of Satan and his angelic kingdom is a vital step in God's purposes. For the new heavens shall be the seat of government for a new celestial hierarchy. The Lord has prepared a replacement for the old angelic government of angels in a people He has gathered to Himself. This is the church and the resurrected saints of the Old Testament. They shall reign with Christ and consitute a new celestial aristocracy to govern the universe. By grace, the fall of Satan and his angels made way for the uplifting of man to the highest place in the universe. All things shall be subject to mankind (the son of man and those that are in Him).

The final battle shall take place after the millennium. Satan shall be let out and shall again gather a rebellion of wicked men. Though the earth shall be governed in the millennium by peace and righteousness, the heart of man is wicked. Sinful man can never be satisfied with God's goodness. People shall turn again to Satan's lies. Yet they shall be defeated swiftly. Though they may hope that Satan might have some last trick to save them, they will be vanquished and sent to the lake of fire forever, to be tormented day and night with Satan, the one to whom they offered their lives.

With the ultimate defeat of death and sin, God may be all in all. The cosmos shall be restored to perfect fellowship with God and all of creation, man, woman, beast, angel shall all be joined in harmony with the eternal love of the Triune God, experiencing the perfect fellowship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit and being transformed and transfigured by that divine love.

THE MYSTERIES OF FALLEN ANGELS AND HOW THEY MIGHT BE RELATED TO THE UFO-ALIEN ABDUCTION PHENOMENON

From a piece by : J. Timothy Unruh



Almost all of what we know about the ultimate origin of sin, even before Eden, is found within two somewhat obscure but significant passages of Scripture, namely Ezekiel 28, and Isaiah 14. Many other passages allude to it but perhaps none so evidently as these two. Our "speculations" are thus based primarily upon these two portions of Scripture, and a few others of lesser extent which relate to this subject. According to a rather commonly propounded view, the angels, before their fall, had received a revelation of the future incarnation of the Son of God. This theory has its finest foundation in the supposition, otherwise not generally held, that the incarnate Word, who according to the Apostle Paul is the head of all principalities and powers and the first-born among all creatures, was from the very beginning predestined in God's plan for the universe to be the head and king of the angels, and as such was to have been the source of supernatural grace and glory for them, too. In treating of the mystery of the incarnation, the speculative merits of this hypothesis will be discussed.

Presently, the plausibility of this view may be assumed. Then the consequence would necessarily follow that the angels had to adore, as their God, the Son of man thus presented to them in human form. Moreover in the bearer of human nature, in a man, they were obliged to acknowledge and revere the source of the grace and glory intended for them, just as those among them who remained loyal had later, according to the Apostle, to adore the first-born upon His entrance into the world.

Of course, this was potentially a great humiliation for the angels. Elevated as they were by nature high above man, they had nevertheless to behold him so markedly preferred to them that human nature was raised above their own in dignity. They had to acknowledge that in spite of their sublime natural perfections they had no claim to the divine sonship, and that they could be members of God's household only as strangers who had been received with gracious condescension. Besides, they had to rest content that the only-begotten of God, who willed to communicate His divine dignity to them as the first-born of all creatures, did not take up His abode among them, but erected the throne of His grace in human nature which was so far beneath theirs, and would speed forth the rays of His divine glory to them from that lower stratum. More, they had to thank God for having united Himself so intimately to mankind, for having located the sun of grace there, and for having singled it out as the central point of the universe.

Can the sin of the angels be more naturally explained, and the malice of their insurrection more profoundly represented, than in this hypothesis? If an angel, especially the most brilliant of them all, Lucifer, became absorbed in the contemplation of his glorious nature seeing himself as "the light" rather than a light bearer, and conceived the idea that God preferred human nature to this lofty nature, and even made him dependent on a man for his own highest and noblest prerogative, must he not have held himself scorned by God, must not his natural exaltation have turned to grievously wounded pride, must he not have been wroth that God had passed his nature by, must he not have burned with envy of the favored human race, and above all must he not have been consumed with ungovernable hatred against the Son of man, to whom he had to pay homage, whom he was bid to adore? We need not assert, as some theologians do, that Lucifer in his pride went so far as to claim the hypostatic union for himself. Such a supposition is contrary to all likelihood; he would have had to give up his own personality, whereas pride is wholly immersed in one's own conceit. If, as Scripture indicates, Lucifer craved in his insane rashness to be like the Most High and to set up an empire of his own against Him, the simplest explanation is to be found in his resentment at the thought that any created nature, and especially human nature, should be exalted above him and that he should be made subject to it. Wrath at the exaltation of human nature, and at the fancied slight to his own, seems to have been the original form of his pride, which also included envy of men who had been preferred to himself and of their head, the Son of man, and rebellion against God who had contrived this arrangement so hateful to him.

This theory so proposed by the theologians, who place the angel's sin in envy of man, can be accounted for only on this hypothesis. For at his creation man otherwise had received no attribute or privilege capable of arousing the angel's envy other than possibly his unique power to reproduce which is merely an attribute man shares with yet lower creatures. Whether in the order of nature or in the order of grace; nothing could have provoked such fierce resentment except the fact that a member of the human race had been appointed for elevation to the dignity of hypostatic union with the Son of God, and hence to headship and kingship over the angels. This view, although not worked out in detail, can well be regarded as lending positive support to the theory advanced.

If such revelation of the incarnation of the Word furnished the impetus to rebellion against God for Lucifer and his angels, who preferred to subject themselves to one of their own kind in a war against God rather than submit to a man, even though He were really God, then sin takes on a new, more terrible and appalling character of malice than we have heretofore found. Since this pride and this hatred toward God were occasioned by opposition to the most sublime mystery of divine love, we have here a doubly unfathomable hell of venomous malice. The will of the rebel does not merely aim at wrenching itself free from God's dominion; it strives formally and primarily to slay, to destroy the Son of God in his mortal, human nature, in the conviction that only thus can redress be gained for the affront at which it recoils. The most monstrous and the blackest of all crimes, and at the same time the most inconceivable of all, deicide, resulted inevitably from the angel's rebellion, and accounts for the frightful malignity manifested in its purpose.

This appalling "mystery of iniquity" considered in its origin becomes, in turn, a beacon which serves to throw light on the entire subsequent course of sin. It permits us to peer into the depths of hate with which the devil pursues man. Satan persecutes man not only because man is destined to succeed to the glory which he himself has lost, but much more because man is a member of the body of God's Son. He persecutes mankind on account of its head and federal representative, and in turn persecutes the latter because He has joined himself to men as their head. He does not rest or halt until he has likewise destroyed the human race, until he has set up his reign, the reign of death on Earth, until he has treacherously enticed men to pay homage to him instead of to the Lord's Anointed, to adore him, to bring him offerings, offerings of death, of ignominy, and deepest degradation. More fiercely still does he persecute the human race in the person of those who, after Christ's incarnation, join his colors, and who seek to destroy the empire of hell in themselves and in others; and since it was a woman, a mere human being, who as mother of the God-man was to become, in a very real sense, "Queen of the Angels," hell's hate had to turn especially against this woman, as well as against her entire progeny.

Do not the awful atrocities of heathendom, particularly the human sacrifices, and the cult of fool vice in its most unnatural forms, as also the systematic attack against Christianity with all the weapons of falsehood and calumny, thus find their fullest explanation? The passions of men would never, at least on such an enormous scale, lead them to rage so ferociously against themselves, and to attack the most exalted ornament of their race; they can be brought to such a pass only by the craftiness and deceit of him who envies them. But in giving heed to his promptings they can, and actually do, arrive at such extremities that once the incarnation of the Son of God is laid before them, and the command to adore Him as their God, their King, and the source of their happiness is issued to them, they too break into fury, rise up against their heavenly King with superhuman malice, vaunt themselves above Him, and seek to destroy Him together with His kingdom. Thus in their day the Jews joined in with the devil's schemes for the murder of God and allowed themselves to be used as the devil's tools. Through the centuries since, hell's agents have been continuing their venomous subversion in desperation as the incarnate Christ is now beyond their clutches, they hound His mystical body with diabolical frenzy.

The scandal which the mystery of the God-man is to the fallen angels and the men who follow them results in their refusal to accept God's truth with the love and reverence due to His Word, and in their rejection of faith in the proper sense of "voluntary" belief. But unbelief that repudiates belief for the sole reason that its object arouses resentment, does not diminish culpability; it increases culpability, it lays bare the full range of the malice involved in persecuting the good that is proposed for belief. Unbelief can partially excuse only where some uncertainty creeps in. Since the revelation of this mystery does not force itself upon men with the same clarity as it does upon the angels, especially when men are deluded by the powers of hell, men's guilt and malice never come up to the guilt and malice of the angels. Yet men can share in the malice of the devils to a high degree; in point of fact, modern unbelief is largely a demonic unbelief.

At any rate, the conclusion cannot be escaped that the mystery of iniquity has in the course of time taken shape as formal hatred and conflict against the mystery of the Incarnation, and hence that the abyss of its malice can be grasped only in terms of this mystery. Since the malice which it occasioned is essentially more heinous than any other, and we cannot readily suppose that the prince of darkness in establishing his kingdom would neglect to lay its foundations on the bedrock of evil, what is more natural than the assumption that from the very outset he would have wished to set up his kingdom in direct opposition to the kingdom of the Son of God made man?

In whatever way we propose this whole theory about the origin and history of sin it is offered only for what it is worth, as a serious theological opinion that is not strictly deducible from the data of revelation, but that has a strong intrinsic probability. In whatever manner sin first became manifest among the host of heaven, we know for certain from Biblical revelation that it came from that realm, and the mystery of iniquity descended from the angels to men, and through it that mystery has been transmitted to the whole of the human race with disastrous consequences. Throughout history Satan and his "new world order" have been trying to keep men from seeing Christ and coming into union with Him and establishing the Kingdom of God on Earth.

More by J. Timothy Unruh



THE DAYS OF NOAH
and the "Sons of God"

One of the most fascinating topics to be found in our study of the Bible is that of its record regarding the early Earth, that first great era in the history of our world, sometimes referred to as the antediluvian age. It is an age shrouded in mystery and wonder, an age pertaining not only to a lost world but an age separated from us in time by a great dividing epoch of catastrophic world changing events. It is an account of that world of human glory and depravity, and demonic intervention; a world which was totally destroyed in the great judgment of the Flood several thousand years ago, a flood which left our world vastly and permanently different. Even though the evidence of this great event is abundant in the traditions of many cultures around the world and confirmed in many of the disciplines, the only direct information that we have of this early period in the Earth's history is found in the first few chapters of the book of Genesis and a few other relatively brief references scattered throughout the rest of Scripture.

Because portions of this subject and related matters touch upon issues of demonology it has been objected that "we should focus our attention on Christ not on the Devil." Yet, among things, such an objection would tend to perpetuate the somewhat obscure understanding of this important passage of Scripture. Furthermore, if our victory as believers is to be complete, it is incumbent upon us to study all of the Scriptures, for as in any military engagement a knowledge of the enemy is necessary. That we will be engaged with this enemy is of a certainty pointed out most graphically by the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 6:10-18. Finally, our Lord Himself exhorts us to study the details of that early age, the likes of which will be repeated shortly before His second coming. Thus, if any ask whether this question is worth laboring, we can but reply that all of Scripture is given to us by the love and wisdom of God and it must be of essential value and importance to accurately understand it if we are to know the full counsel of His revelation.

Two days before the crucifixion of Christ, His disciples asked Him, "What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matthew 24:3) His reply pointed to a number of "signs," all of which together would occur in that generation which would see the signs, and which would be the sign they had requested. These signs were climaxed with the prophetic warning, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be, For as in the days that were before the Flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the Ark, and knew not until the Flood came and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be" (Matthew 24:37-39). Thus did Jesus not only verify the historicity of antediluvian culture and the great Flood, and remind us of the relationship between wickedness and judgment, but He also encouraged us to study closely the characteristics of the days before the Flood, because these would also characterize the days just before His return.

The first great age of human history was brought to its climax and culmination in the days of Noah. The sin-disease, which began so innocuously when Eve was tempted to doubt the word of God, which then began to show its true ugliness of character in the life of Cain, and which came to maturity in the godless civilization developed by his descendants, finally descended into such a terrible morass of wickedness and corruption that even the most fertile imagination is defied in its attempt to grasp the magnitude, and of which a full disclosure would, without doubt, utterly shock the Christian's sensibilities to behold. The record notes that even our very Creator Himself was dismayed and grieved to the core of His being that He had ever made man upon the Earth. Only a global bath of exceedingly turbid water unleashed from the windows of heaven and from the bowels of the Earth could purge and cleanse the fevered and festered world. The word of God clearly and unequivocally declares that the characteristics of those awful and tragic days, strange as they may seem, are nevertheless to be repeated in the last days of this present age. As a correlation between Genesis 6:1-4 and Matthew 24:37-39, as well as correlations between other pertinent passages, will show, it is clearly evident that in the times of both cases corruption and violence exist side by side with luxury, refinement and high culture. Such minglings apparently incongruous have not been infrequent in postdiluvian times. It is thus urgently important, from the standpoint of both understanding past history and seeking guidance for the future, that we understand the events which took place in the days of Noah.

As we can see from Scripture, and as pointed out by our Lord Himself, the sixth chapter of Genesis contains an important message for us regarding the days of Noah, a description of momentous interest and importance to us: for our Lord has declared that a similar epoch of worldliness will at length exhaust the forbearance of God toward the present dwellers upon the Earth, and cause Him to come with fire, and with His chariots like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire; to plead with all flesh by fire and by His sword (Isaiah 66:15-16). It becomes, therefore, an obvious duty to consider the progress of wickedness and corruption among the antediluvians, so far as it has pleased God to inform us of it; to acquaint ourselves not merely with the sowing but also with the watering, the growth, and the ripening, of that hideous crop against which the gleaming sickle of the Almighty at length flashed forth from heaven; to note the various incentives to evil as they successively appeared, and to observe the particular influence of each upon the rapidly decomposing masses of society. For by so doing we shall arm ourselves against the errors and temptations which are daily multiplying around us, and be able to discern the threatening signs of our own times. (Matthew 24:37-39; Romans 15:4; I Corinthians 10:11; II Timothy 3:16-17; I John 5:13)

When men multiplied on the face of the Earth in that primeval age, as in our own time, so also did the diffusion and intensification of sin. For every form of evil which exists in thinly populated locales will also be found, but in greater degree, where men have multiplied; where there are countless vices peculiar to crowded districts. Consequently, if they are numerous, men support each other in rebellion, and are prone to become far more daring and defiant of God. Among ourselves the strongholds of rationalism and atheism are always to be found in large cities. As the families of the Earth increase in number, so also does civilization, learning, and technology. Given the longevity of the antediluvians, coupled with their immense accumulation of knowledge, experience, and skill, their civilization must have advanced to an almost inconceivable degree. One recorded specimen of antediluvian industry was the Ark built singly through the labor, and under the superintendence, of a lone godly Sethite, Noah, guided by God, along with his modest family. Sad and instructive was the long past amalgamation of the Cainites (descendants of Cain, the murderer son of Adam and Eve who slew his brother Abel) and Sethites (descendants of Seth, the godly son whom Adam and Eve bore after the death of Abel) in a society of leisure disposed to wickedness. Abject indulgence, self gratification and depraved human glory seemed to be the residual ungodly religion of the day. A wastefully indulgent life of vanity and a disregard for the institution of the family in the careless giving away of their children in frivolous marriages set the stage for the appalling escalation of evil shortly to follow. No true worshippers of Jehovah were to be found, save in the single family of Noah, a small remnant connected with the line of the promised Seed.

Then, in the days of Noah, a new and startling event burst upon the world, and fearfully accelerated the already rapid progress of evil, leading to such a tidal wave of violence and wickedness over the Earth that there was no longer any remedy but utter destruction. For such, our text in Genesis reads as follows:

"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown" (Genesis 6:1-4).

This passage contains a detail that is often either ignored, disputed, or outright rejected - that of literal physical giants on the Earth. Here we have the record of what evidently constitutes the first great outbreak of demonic "genetic engineering" through the demonic abduction of women, the result of which was humanoid gigantism. The second outbreak occurred "also after that" sometime before Israel arrived in the land of Canaan. For there they encountered the Nephalim or "fallen ones." The pre-Flood outbreak had been, of course, brought to an abrupt end by the world wide judgment of the Flood. During the time of David, who faced off Goliath, God, through Israel, brought the post-Flood outbreak to an end. A thousand years after the time of David demonic intervention occurred again, this time in the form of human corporal possession which waxed rampant, at the time of Christ. Finally, in our own time we again see evident trademarks of demonic activity, by the fallen "sons of God," of a different legion, most probably in the likes of the "UFO" and "alien abduction" phenomenon of recent years.

Anything is possible in the Universe.
I'm at a point in life where I truly wonder about my grandkids futures.
I pray everyday for loved ones & their protection.
I thank my Guardian angels & healers & mentors.

I pray for the homeless, the lonely, the heartbroken people of this world.
Hope & good deeds are not enough anymore.
Mankind needs a spanking for all his wrongful doings!
It's our mess to clean up.

It is time for us to look at how our Neanderthal brethren lived. It seems they were far more spiritual than previously believed. They were in tune with nature and even followed the paths of the stars. We need to realize the Sun may be a conscious being and that what we conceive as the Universe may be quite different than what we are taught. Western thought and religion is very materialistic in their approach. We have forgotten that our ancestors could get in touch with the spirit world and find the answers that they needed.

Can you tell I am currently reading the book "Sun of gOd" by Gregory Sams?

Don't feel small and do what you can to help make this world a better place. The Earth is a living Goddess and can live with or without us. We need to show we are worthy of living on this wondrous planet.

kidflash2008 wrote:

It is time for us to look at how our Neanderthal brethren lived. It seems they were far more spiritual than previously believed. They were in tune with nature and even followed the paths of the stars. We need to realize the Sun may be a conscious being and that what we conceive as the Universe may be quite different than what we are taught. Western thought and religion is very materialistic in their approach. We have forgotten that our ancestors could get in touch with the spirit world and find the answers that they needed.

Can you tell I am currently reading the book "Sun of gOd" by Gregory Sams?

Don't feel small and do what you can to help make this world a better place. The Earth is a living Goddess and can live with or without us. We need to show we are worthy of living on this wondrous planet.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY "WESTERN THOUGHT AND RELIGION..." , YOU SOUND LIKE YOU'RE BOTHERED BY "CHRISTIANITY" , AND THAT YOU LUMP IT ALL TOGETHER AS SOME KIND OF MATERIALISTIC GAME PLAYED BY MATERIALISTIC PEOPLE , THATS SAD IF ITS HOW YOU JUDGE CHRISTIANITY. YOU DON'T RESPECT THE MESSAGE THAT JESUS BROUGHT?
DON'T BLAME JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY JUST BECAUSE THE FOLLOWERS STUMBLE LIKE SINNERS... THATS WHAT WE ARE, AND THATS WHY HE CAME TO SAVE US.

Whoa bud, you are way out of line with that comeback!

...And then came Maude:

http://www.pharmacratic-inquisition.com/main/

I'm "bothered" by anything extorting and terrorizing the individual for personal gain.

~
alienview@roadrunner.com
> www.AlienView.net
>> AVG Blog -- http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/
>>> U F O M a g a z i n e -- www.ufomag.com

danreid wrote:

Whoa bud, you are way out of line with that comeback!

WHAT PART OF IT WAS OUT OF LINE? WE'RE ADULTS HAVING AN ADULT CONVERSATION, NOBODY'S BEING THREATENED WITH VIOLENCE.


AND HOW IS IT ANY DIFFERENT WHEN SOMEBODY ATTACKS CHRISTIANITY..IS THAT ALSO WAY OUT OF LINE TOO?

PLEASE EXPLAIN YOURSELF.

danreid wrote:

Whoa bud, you are way out of line with that comeback!

I WAS RESPONDING TO THIS LINE .....

Western thought and religion is very materialistic in their approach. We have forgotten that our ancestors could get in touch with the spirit world and find the answers that they needed.




TO ME IT SOUNDS LIKE THE POSTER IS TAKING A SWIPE AT CHRISTIANITY AND IGNORING EVERYTHING THAT JESUS TAUGHT , WHICH IS WHY I RESPONDED. JESUS NEVER TAUGHT PEOPLE TO BE MATERIALISTIC .

NJ said: " Finally, in our own time we again see evident trademarks of demonic activity, by the fallen "sons of God," of a different legion, most probably in the likes of the "UFO" and "alien abduction" phenomenon of recent years."

As usual, your good and evil koolaid is hard to swallow. You post a large dissertation on conflict in the bible, then finish it up with the above quote.

So, to put it in a nutshell, we must slot everything into simplistic categories of good and evil, black and white, acceptable and not acceptable. And then you assure us that you know what the UFO represents: it is evil incarnate!

Ah, for the illlusion of certainty.

There is one huge problem with all of this nonsense: Your philosophy here is dividing our singular world into conflicting factions. Man is just a puppet of conflicting external forces. We must all struggle against the things we deem "evil" so that we can then pat ourselves on the back for our wanton destruction of certain factions of God's supposedly universally precious creations. All is struggle, war and strife. Life is a bitch and then you die.

Gosh, it kind of makes me long for Darwin's utterly pointless existentialism! At least that made a little rational sense. But your panacea for man is endless strife: destruction of that which we fear. So, who made you and your book the final adjudicator of what is "good" and what is "evil"?

Even your book is not very clear on this point. So, you just slot the UFO into the evil category: Problem solved! They are clearly evil and we must struggle against them - just like we struggle incessantly against our fellow humans.

Here's an idea for you: give up the fear.

Forget all of this other nonsense you have posted here. Go back and read the sermon on the mount. Jesus never advocated for a lugubrious human destiny of endless strife, on the contrary, he advocated for loving our neighbors and EVEN OUR ENEMIES as we love ourselves! How does that fit in with your good and evil stuff? Who would Jesus hate and engage in endless conflict with? Would Jesus be hugging us with nuclear arms?

NJ, I have to agree with Dan. You were way out of line with your comeback. You come here repeatedly and regale us with tales of your belief system carefully extracted from an old book written by a bunch of guys who wanted nothing more than to rule over all and sundry by taking on the oldest strategy in the book: divide and conquer. You know, good and evil? Endless struggle and strife?

Then you get very sensitive to even the most innocent remarks, certain that they are unfair attacks on your religion. A lot of this is only in your own mind.

If you really want to be a true Christian, then you might consider the sermon on the mount as the final word of Jesus himself and throw out the rest of the bible as nothing more than load of divisive propagandist brainwash. If you like living in a world of pain and endless struggle and strife, then knock yourself out. But that is not what Jesus ever advocated. Even I, a confirmed non-christian, have figured that out.

Why haven't you?

Mike Good wrote:

NJ said: " Finally, in our own time we again see evident trademarks of demonic activity, by the fallen "sons of God," of a different legion, most probably in the likes of the "UFO" and "alien abduction" phenomenon of recent years."

As usual, your good and evil koolaid is hard to swallow. You post a large dissertation on conflict in the bible, then finish it up with the above quote.

So, to put it in a nutshell, we must slot everything into simplistic categories of good and evil, black and white, acceptable and not acceptable. And then you assure us that you know what the UFO represents: it is evil incarnate!

Ah, for the illlusion of certainty.

There is one huge problem with all of this nonsense: Your philosophy here is dividing our singular world into conflicting factions. Man is just a puppet of conflicting external forces. We must all struggle against the things we deem "evil" so that we can then pat ourselves on the back for our wanton destruction of certain factions of God's supposedly universally precious creations. All is struggle, war and strife. Life is a bitch and then you die.

Gosh, it kind of makes me long for Darwin's utterly pointless existentialism! At least that made a little rational sense. But your panacea for man is endless strife: destruction of that which we fear. So, who made you and your book the final adjudicator of what is "good" and what is "evil"?

Even your book is not very clear on this point. So, you just slot the UFO into the evil category: Problem solved! They are clearly evil and we must struggle against them - just like we struggle incessantly against our fellow humans.

Here's an idea for you: give up the fear.

Forget all of this other nonsense you have posted here. Go back and read the sermon on the mount. Jesus never advocated for a lugubrious human destiny of endless strife, on the contrary, he advocated for loving our neighbors and EVEN OUR ENEMIES as we love ourselves! How does that fit in with your good and evil stuff? Who would Jesus hate and engage in endless conflict with? Would Jesus be hugging us with nuclear arms?

NJ, I have to agree with Dan. You were way out of line with your comeback. You come here repeatedly and regale us with tales of your belief system carefully extracted from an old book written by a bunch of guys who wanted nothing more than to rule over all and sundry by taking on the oldest strategy in the book: divide and conquer. You know, good and evil? Endless struggle and strife?

Then you get very sensitive to even the most innocent remarks, certain that they are unfair attacks on your religion. A lot of this is only in your own mind.

If you really want to be a true Christian, then you might consider the sermon on the mount as the final word of Jesus himself and throw out the rest of the bible as nothing more than load of divisive propagandist brainwash. If you like living in a world of pain and endless struggle and strife, then knock yourself out. But that is not what Jesus ever advocated. Even I, a confirmed non-christian, have figured that out.

Why haven't you?

FOR SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE IN CHRISTIANITY, YOU SURE DO SPEND A LOT OF TIME WORRYING ABOUT HOW OTHERS PERCEIVE ITS MESSAGE.... MAYBE THATS THE STRIFE IN YOUR OWN LIFE...MAYBE YOU AREN'T COMFORTABLE WITH YOUR OWN DECISION TO DENY CHRISTIANITY AND ITS MESSAGE.

LakehurstNJ, yes I did take a swipe at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. The three Western religions all espouse a be good or be punished mentality. I only wish Christians followed what Jesus stated, but they are more interested in the dogma of the religion. (You must believe Jesus is the true Son of God, or you will burn in Hell.)

I was raised Catholic and was not spiritually happy with that belief system. I could not ask the tough questions for fear of being labeled a heretic or other charge. My family gets upset even now when I say "Goddess Bless", even though they say they are OK with me not being a Catholic.

I am also reading many books on the controversial subject of shamanism and other ways to connect to a possible real "Otherworld". I am now reading a book entitled "Sun of gOd" (by Gregory Sams) that is about the possibility that our Sun and other stars are living sentient beings. The book makes a lot of sense, and could change the way we think of Creation itself. I am always open to new ideas, and I find Christianity to be a little closed minded for me. (That is my opinion and does not reflect anyone elses.)

If you are happy with Christianity, then more power to you. You do not need to get upset if you read a statement that is not totally flattering of Christianity. If I got upset over how many articles I see equating Paganism and the occult with devil worship, I would never get anything else done. These threads are about opinions, and toes (belief systems or theories) may get stepped on.

You are not the only one I have made upset over some comments I have made, and you will not be the last one. I am human, and do try to not insult people personally, but the subjects I write about are fair game. I also do not make fun of them, but if I have problems with the beliefs or theories, I will never be afraid to state my mind.

For me I find truth in everything and truth in nothing. For the Bible started out with truth but its been handed down and watered down to control and use humans that the truth is still in it but we need to rise above the fear and thoughts that even on earth or Heaven that anybody wins in a war!

kidflash2008 wrote:

LakehurstNJ, yes I did take a swipe at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. The three Western religions all espouse a be good or be punished mentality. I only wish Christians followed what Jesus stated, but they are more interested in the dogma of the religion. (You must believe Jesus is the true Son of God, or you will burn in Hell.)

I was raised Catholic and was not spiritually happy with that belief system. I could not ask the tough questions for fear of being labeled a heretic or other charge. My family gets upset even now when I say "Goddess Bless", even though they say they are OK with me not being a Catholic.

I am also reading many books on the controversial subject of shamanism and other ways to connect to a possible real "Otherworld". I am now reading a book entitled "Sun of gOd" (by Gregory Sams) that is about the possibility that our Sun and other stars are living sentient beings. The book makes a lot of sense, and could change the way we think of Creation itself. I am always open to new ideas, and I find Christianity to be a little closed minded for me. (That is my opinion and does not reflect anyone elses.)

If you are happy with Christianity, then more power to you. You do not need to get upset if you read a statement that is not totally flattering of Christianity. If I got upset over how many articles I see equating Paganism and the occult with devil worship, I would never get anything else done. These threads are about opinions, and toes (belief systems or theories) may get stepped on.

You are not the only one I have made upset over some comments I have made, and you will not be the last one. I am human, and do try to not insult people personally, but the subjects I write about are fair game. I also do not make fun of them, but if I have problems with the beliefs or theories, I will never be afraid to state my mind.

YOU AND I FEEL THE SAME WAY, WE ARE BOTH JUST STATING OUR OPINIONS, JUST BECAUSE I COUNTER ONE OF YOUR POINTS WITH MY OWN POINT SHOULDN'T BE LOOKED AT AS ME ATTACKING YOU , I'M JUST HAVING A DISCUSSION AND ENJOY OFFERING THE COUNTER TO SUPPORT MY BELIEFS , WHY DOES EVERYONE GET SO SENSITIVE? I ENJOY GOOD DEBATES ... SOME HERE ACT AS THOUGH WE SHOULD ONLY POST AGREEMEMNTS WITH EACH OTHER... WHICH MAKES FOR BORING CONVERSATION AT TIMES.

THE BELIEF SYSTEM IS TIED INTO UFOLOGY AS MUSCH AS SOME WISH IT WASN'T ... AND THATS WHY IT NEEDS TO BE DISCUSED AND DEBATED AT TIMES... ITS PART OF THE OVERALL PICTURE, JUST LIKE THE BOOK YOU ARE CURRENTLY READING... ITS ALL OPEN FOR DISCUSSION AND DEBATE.

YOU AND I ARE COOL ... I WASN'T ATTACKING YOU, I WAS COUNTERING WHAT YOU WROTE BECAUSE I DID SEE THE LITTLE SWIPE....I THINK YOU REALIZE MY RESPONSE WASN'T MEAN SPIRITED.

One reason people think the responses are rather hot is they are written in all capital letters, which are used to denote anger.

I do not think you are angry with me, but wanted to clear up a few things for this and other discussions. I am sorry if I read anger into your posts.

Goddess Bless

Lloyd

kidflash2008 wrote:

One reason people think the responses are rather hot is they are written in all capital letters, which are used to denote anger.

I do not think you are angry with me, but wanted to clear up a few things for this and other discussions. I am sorry if I read anger into your posts.

Goddess Bless

Lloyd

I was just being lazy and didn't turn off the caps , sorry about that ... never meant for it to sound like I was angry and yelling. I enjoy debating some topics and giving responses to support my views and opinions .. I feel its entertaining and educational to hear both sides of some topics and it only comes thru when people can continue to counter with a question or a point, people should take note that its not being done to "fight" but to sincerely try and understand how the other person responds when you both hold different views and opinions... sometimes it could lead to one of the persons being swayed in one direction or another ... its all about learning and sharing .. nobody here has all the answers and nobody should be attacked for holding onto their beliefs ... I always get perplexed when I see how some people get so steamed up over the Bible and Christianity , yet they have no way of knowing for sure that the Bible and Christianity aren't the truth about this thing we call life.Its like everything is open for consideration,... "except for", christianity and the Bible

The Bible and Christianity "might be right"... as much as that pains them to consider such a thing. God may have made it as simple as using his own son Jesus as the new sacrificial Lamb ... just like the way they used sacrificial lambs in the old testament... in order to keep it simple enough for all mankind to understand.

Yes a lot of things are unknown and there are probably mind-blowing mysteries about our universe and existence that would be so unbelievable ... but this is where we are and this is what we know... I tend to choose that God is smart enough to have us right where we need to be.... both spiritually and intellectually... to turn from God and search for a deeper meaning and different answer just doesn't make sense to me ...why would anyone want to go deeper than Gods mind ? Isn't God enough?

LakehurstNJwitness wrote:

FOR SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE IN CHRISTIANITY, YOU SURE DO SPEND A LOT OF TIME WORRYING ABOUT HOW OTHERS PERCEIVE ITS MESSAGE.... MAYBE THATS THE STRIFE IN YOUR OWN LIFE...MAYBE YOU AREN'T COMFORTABLE WITH YOUR OWN DECISION TO DENY CHRISTIANITY AND ITS MESSAGE.

NJ,

I have no interest in how people "perceive Christianity's message". That is pure crap. What does bother me is people who call themselves Christian and do not seem to understand the first thing about what the over-arching message of Jesus was.

To put it simply: Live by the golden rule. Do unto others as you would do unto yourself. Love EVERYBODY.

So, EVERYBODY would include all of those "evil" people you so callously condemn with that simplistic term. You cannot live by that golden rule if you have condemnation in your heart.

I honestly don't care what you believe - unless it is destructive. And guess what? All of this good and evil stuff you throw around like manna from heaven is divisive and destructive. I have argued this point before, you didn't get it then and I doubt you will get it now.

The terms "good and evil" are not absolutes. They are RELATIVE terms. They only have validity to the person using them. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It all comes down to which "side" you were born on - thus it is RELATIVE.

In other words, by those questionable relative standards, everybody would be both evil and good, depending on which angle you look at them from. Boy, no separating the wheat from the chaff that way.

Duh.

It is this kind of simplistic thinking that gets us into pointless wars and endless human treachery and misery. That is how you get a moron like George Bush telling people "You are either with us or against us." Axis of evil. Good and bad. Black and white. Us and them. Divide and conquer. Create a world of endless strife, misery and stupidity. I think this is the kind of thing that Jesus was advocating against.

It is because you do not seem to understand this that I continue to challenge your belief system. It is not because it is "christian". It is because it is divisive and destructive.

So, which "evil guys" do you think Jesus would hate? Would it be the terrorists who create terror because they are afraid of other people they label as "terrorists"?

Oh yeah, that would be US, unless you missed the reference......

NJ,

I have no interest in how people "perceive Christianity's message". That is pure crap. What does bother me is people who call themselves Christian and do not seem to understand the first thing about what the over-arching message of Jesus was.

To put it simply: Live by the golden rule. Do unto others as you would do unto yourself. Love EVERYBODY.

So, EVERYBODY would include all of those "evil" people you so callously condemn with that simplistic term. You cannot live by that golden rule if you have condemnation in your heart.

I honestly don't care what you believe - unless it is destructive. And guess what? All of this good and evil stuff you throw around like manna from heaven is divisive and destructive. I have argued this point before, you didn't get it then and I doubt you will get it now.

The terms "good and evil" are not absolutes. They are RELATIVE terms. They only have validity to the person using them. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It all comes down to which "side" you were born on - thus it is RELATIVE.

In other words, by those questionable relative standards, everybody would be both evil and good, depending on which angle you look at them from. Boy, no separating the wheat from the chaff that way.

Duh.

It is this kind of simplistic thinking that gets us into pointless wars and endless human treachery and misery. That is how you get a moron like George Bush telling people "You are either with us or against us." Axis of evil. Good and bad. Black and white. Us and them. Divide and conquer. Create a world of endless strife, misery and stupidity. I think this is the kind of thing that Jesus was advocating against.

It is because you do not seem to understand this that I continue to challenge your belief system. It is not because it is "christian". It is because it is divisive and destructive.

So, which "evil guys" do you think Jesus would hate? Would it be the terrorists who create terror because they are afraid of other people they label as "terrorists"?

Well said!!

Mike posts ....

I have no interest in how people "perceive Christianity's message". That is pure crap. What does bother me is people who call themselves Christian and do not seem to understand the first thing about what the over-arching message of Jesus was.




You just contradicted yourself , you open by saying you have no interest, and then you go on to explain why you do have interest. If you don't even believe in christianity, how are you going to tell others that they're practicing it the wrong way? Its a total contradiction.

My response to Kidflash was defending "christianity" , not defending the followers of christianity who as we all know are stumbling humans who are not perfect... i was asking kidflash what he saw so wrong with christianitys message, which never got answered.
And here you are preaching to the followers of christianity about the christian message, but out of the other side of your mouth you don't like or believe in christianity... you seem to have a mixed message.

Looks like heaven ain't the only place that sees combat lately.

You guys need to cool off

dayanx wrote:

Looks like heaven ain't the only place that sees combat lately.

You guys need to cool off

We're all having a mature conversation , you're the only one acting like an ill mannered little child...grow up and post something useful if you're capable.

Mike Good posts .......To put it simply: Live by the golden rule. Do unto others as you would do unto yourself. Love EVERYBODY.

So, EVERYBODY would include all of those "evil" people you so callously condemn with that simplistic term. You cannot live by that golden rule if you have condemnation in your heart.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don't think I called anyone evil ... I was only giving a possible theory that there could be evil beings out to deceive humanity , just as the word of God tells us in the Bible.
Your argument seems to be with God, not me.

"Your argument seems to be with God, not me."

Now that's a steaming pile, said as graciously. It's pretty obvious that the argument is not remotely with a "God" so necessarily complicated as to be an unspeakable mystery... but for some ill defined and untested (...and so valueless...) faith of the believer. No, the argument is, of course, with God's crass —if self appointed— apologists, persons as inflexible as they are proselytizing. These are intolerant zealots, usually, who would legislate the sensibilities of others while furtively practicing what they'd preach against. These are self-aggrandizing and moralizing busybodies fretting with regard to the motes in the eyes of others unmindful of the beam in their own. These are mawkish authoritarians ironically creating the horror about which they condescendingly sermonize from the ignorances they busily promote.

Argue with "God"? Don't be absurd. And please don't further embarrass yourself pretending to be able to determine who steps "up" and who steps "off" in the conversation. Perhaps you have the faith to think you can or should; that faith would be unfounded.

Thanks.


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